[Politics] The General Election Thread

[NooBHA]

I know all this with my eyes closed, it’s my profession.

Now:
Company profit £50,000
Before a salary of £8,628
Profit after salary £41,372
Corporation tax bill £7,861
Leaving £33,511 for dividends
The first £2,000 of which are tax free
Income tax on the balance of £31,511 = £2,363

Under Corbyn’s plan today:
Company profit £50,000
Before a salary of £8,628
Profit after salary £41,372
Corporation tax bill £7,861. But will McDonnell increase this from 19%?
Leaving £33,511 for dividends
The first £2,000 of which are tax free. But will McDonnell scrap this?
Income tax on the balance of £33,511 = 6,302

Overnight that small businessmen/family are out of pocket by £3,939 per annum.

Most businessmen start because they have an idea, or are made redundant, hate their boss, hate being in a master and servant arrangement, like the flexibility, many people do it now because it works with their child arrangements and so on. Only the people like famously John Burt at the BBC set up a limited company purely as tax avoidance. IR35 and the Badges of Trade rules catch them, but some of course carry on lying with a bent engager not wanting to pay employers national insurance and accrue employment rights for staff.

Whilst your calculations are FACT. It's not true that only rich and famous set up Owner Managed Companies to avoid Tax. There are millions of companies in the UK and I would suggest that at least 80% of them are set up that way to reduce Tax Liabilities. Otherwise they could be Sole Traders or LLPs

I am glad they will pay more tax under a Corbyn Government. Why should they pay less tax than a standard Schedule E employee earning the same levels of income. Well done Jezza. He says it fill be a fairer society for all and if that means people pay more tax then so be it.

I will definitely pay more tax but I will still be voting for him

 

[vegster]

A copy and paste from my post a few pages back...

I think most would be prepared to sacrifice a bit themselves if they believed that, in doing so, the benefit would be felt elsewhere. But how far does that extend?

How many people would genuinely place their vote knowing that it could mean a dramatic negative impact on them and their family (less disposable income, not being to afford a holiday and cutting activities their kids can do etc) in order to effect a broader societal improvement.

The key part of society for me is the NHS, if you have the misfortune to suffer a severe ailment or long term condition you are supported and given the best available treatment ( Mostly !) … It's something that by and large we are all going to need at some point, particularly in old age. Currently I am taking home about £1200 a month after tax, even paying an extra 10% of that in tax is not going to help an awful lot as £120 is probably going to pay one nurses wages for a day and a half. I would do that if push came to shove but believe me I'm willing to bet the majority wouldn't.

 

[Bozza]

The key part of society for me is the NHS, if you have the misfortune to suffer a severe ailment or long term condition you are supported and given the best available treatment ( Mostly !) … It's something that by and large we are all going to need at some point, particularly in old age. Currently I am taking home about £1200 a month after tax, even paying an extra 10% of that in tax is not going to help an awful lot as £120 is probably going to pay one nurses wages for a day and a half. I would do that if push came to shove but believe me I'm willing to bet the majority wouldn't.

If everyone gave up 10% of what they end up with after deductions, that would be a significant economy-changing sum of money.

My gut feel is that most people would NOT be prepared to do that. It's all very well saying that on a football messageboard where politics feels even more tribal than football itself, but I'm not convinced many really would when it comes down to it, although there are clearly a wide spectrum of circumstances at play, with some feeling they could "afford" a 10% hit whilst, for others, 10% would break them.

 

[Weststander]

Whilst your calculations are FACT. It's not true that only rich and famous set up Owner Managed Companies to avoid Tax. There are millions of companies in the UK and I would suggest that at least 80% of them are set up that way to reduce Tax Liabilities. Otherwise they could be Sole Traders or LLPs

I am glad they will pay more tax under a Corbyn Government. Why should they pay less tax than a standard Schedule E employee earning the same levels of income. Well done Jezza. He says it fill be a fairer society for all and if that means people pay more tax then so be it.

I will definitely pay more tax but I will still be voting for him

I recognise you’re very knowledgeable on this.

Being probably older than you, I attended tax lectures in the 90’s and noughties, where the apolitical speakers included very senior guys from HMRC, Treasury etc. They told us that that HM Government (Blair & Brown) wanted a sea change of sole traders and partnerships, being replaced by limited companies over time. The reasons:
1. Limited company owners tend to be far more responsible.
2. Meet statutory deadlines.
3. The tax gap (fraud) per business is lower for small limiteds over unincorporated’s.
4. The standardised composition of limited company accounts, is a great help for HMRC is checking tax compliance, gross margin for the sector, anomalies in under declared income, over claimed expenses, black and white rules on wholly, exclusively and necessary expenses, no guessed % personal use for motor, black and white rules on cars. Ixbrl has taken this a step further, HMRC computer algorithms identifying fraud and errors in limited company accounts.

Blair and Brown encouraged this with a favourable tax regime. Osborne worsened that to an extent with the 7.5% dividend tax band.

That’s why we professionals at the time were told by the Government and Treasury, as to why they pushed for the use of the limited company vehicle.

 

[NooBHA]

If everyone gave up 10% of what they end up with after deductions, that would be a significant economy-changing sum of money.

My gut feel is that most people would NOT be prepared to do that. It's all very well saying that on a football messageboard where politics feels even more tribal than football itself, but I'm not convinced many really would when it comes down to it, although there are clearly a wide spectrum of circumstances at play, with some feeling they could "afford" a 10% hit whilst, for others, 10% would break them.

I would definitely be willing to drop 10 % of my net salary in extra tax for a fairer society and better public services.

If I was on a more restrictive salary you are correct. I probably wouldn't but it is not the lower earners who are the Labour Party Targets for the collection of higher taxes

 

[theonlymikey]

So what if Corbyn lives in a fancy expensive house . One man is trying to distribute his wealth, the other hold onto it at all costs. VOTE LABOUR.

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[clapham_gull]

View attachment 117416

I'm not sure Corbyn or other London MPs can be blamed for the ridiculous rise in house prices they bought for years ago for far less.

Check out the valuation of Tory MPs places.

The Corbyn valuation is rubbish by the way, it's based on the house next door which has been re-modeled internally by architects and won an award I think.

It's worth far less and has doubled in value since he bought it.

 

[NooBHA]

I recognise you’re very knowledgeable on this.

Being probably older than you, I attended tax lectures in the 90’s and noughties, where the apolitical speakers included very senior guys from HMRC, Treasury etc. They told us that that HM Government (Blair & Brown) wanted a sea change of sole traders and partnerships, being replaced by limited companies over time. The reasons:
1. Limited company owners tend to be far more responsible.
2. Meet statutory deadlines.
3. The tax gap (fraud) per business is lower for small limiteds over unincorporated’s.
4. The standardised composition of limited company accounts, is a great help for HMRC is checking tax compliance, gross margin for the sector, anomalies in under declared income, over claimed expenses, black and white rules on wholly, exclusively and necessary expenses, no guessed % personal use for motor, black and white rules on cars. Ixbrl has taken this a step further, HMRC computer algorithms identifying fraud and errors in limited company accounts.

Blair and Brown encouraged this with a favourable tax regime. Osborne worsened that to an extent with the 7.5% dividend tax band.

That’s why we professionals at the time were told by the Government and Treasury, as to why they pushed for the use of the limited company vehicle.

You may well be correct. You probably are. I don't know. But Jeremy Corbyn is not Tony Blair. He is gonna redress the imbalance that companies shelter fair payment of tax due on income and movements of monies.

Also I'm probably older than you.. I studied tax law internally away back in the 1980s

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

The key part of society for me is the NHS, if you have the misfortune to suffer a severe ailment or long term condition you are supported and given the best available treatment ( Mostly !) … It's something that by and large we are all going to need at some point, particularly in old age. Currently I am taking home about £1200 a month after tax, even paying an extra 10% of that in tax is not going to help an awful lot as £120 is probably going to pay one nurses wages for a day and a half. I would do that if push came to shove but believe me I'm willing to bet the majority wouldn't.

Time and again working class people are asked - are you willing to pay more tax? - the answer is usually 'no'

However, if the same people are asked - are you willing to pay more tax to fund increased investment in the NHS and education? - the answer is invariably 'yes'.

The problem is that pollsters regularly fix the questions depending on the message they want to come out at the end.

On top of that - it is not necessary to increase taxes on working class people - the richest 1% of the population in Britain have a wealth totally £2.6trillion - that is £2,600,000,000,000 - that is enough to pay for the NHS in its entirety for almost 20 years. Among this 1% each household has a wealth of £3.25million upwards (i.e. - those at the bottom of this 1% have £3.25million and it rises dramatically from there). And if you are in this 1% you pay accountants a lot of money so that you pay as little tax as possible (and the tax tends to decrease the richer that you are).

So if you want to fund the NHS properly you don't have to punitively hit people who take home £1200 a month after tax - you can hit the people who take home £12,000+ a month after tax (and the people who are in the 1% earn a lot more than that).

 

[Bodian]

I'm not sure Corbyn or other London MPs can be blamed for the ridiculous rise in house prices they bought for years ago for far less.

Check out the valuation of Tory MPs places.

The Corbyn valuation is rubbish by the way, it's based on the house next door which has been re-modeled internally by architects and won an award I think.

It's worth far less and has doubled in value since he bought it.

Meanwhile Johnson sold his London House for £3.75m earlier this year. But don't worry, he won't be homeless - he bought a £1.3m new home for him & Carrie - whilst keeping his £1.5m mansion in Thame for the weekends......

 

[Weststander]

You may well be correct. You probably are. I don't know. But Jeremy Corbyn is not Tony Blair. He is gonna redress the imbalance that companies shelter fair payment of tax due on income and movements of monies

Well, 20 days to go, this will all be debated to death on NSC . I prefer this form of debate and [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION]’s on society’s willingness to pay more tax or not, to the childish insults and pasting twatter comments from totally biased ‘experts’.

If you were a betting man, do you think Corbyn will be in no.10 with an overall majority?

I haven’t a clue, but I have always felt that the SNP will have the Commons over a barrel, to get even more money and a referendum.

 

[Baldseagull]

If only the EU would play ball. They do nothing tangibly to stop Ireland, Lux and Netherlands being tax havens, in cahoots with these multinational tax cheats.

It's the member states, or some of them, including the UK to date, that block change.

 

[vegster]

If everyone gave up 10% of what they end up with after deductions, that would be a significant economy-changing sum of money.

My gut feel is that most people would NOT be prepared to do that. It's all very well saying that on a football messageboard where politics feels even more tribal than football itself, but I'm not convinced many really would when it comes down to it, although there are clearly a wide spectrum of circumstances at play, with some feeling they could "afford" a 10% hit whilst, for others, 10% would break them.

True. I am lucky and have had good health and have not been a "net user " of the NHS but more a net contributor, however, I am getting to the stage where the clock is ticking and, as such, I see the future necessity of a good health service. Maybe as a society we need to re - think our priorities in life, a smaller car, a cheaper holiday a smaller house ? Maybe too much emphasis is put on making money as a measure of success ?

 

[Weststander]

It's the member states, or some of them, including the UK to date, that block change.

The Dutch, Irish and Lux use the single nation vote veto on ‘internal’ tax policy to their great advantage with these cheating multinationals. When clearly their tax policies on this are harming others members and honest businesses across the EU.

 

[theonlymikey]

Anybody see that geezer on QT on over £80k? He didn't know he was in the top 5% of earners. He didn't even think he was in the top 50%!

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1197651546940608514?s=19

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[NooBHA]

Well, 20 days to go, this will all be debated to death on NSC . I prefer this form of debate and [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION]’s on society’s willingness to pay more tax or not, to the childish insults and pasting twatter comments from totally biased ‘experts’.

If you were a betting man, do you think Corbyn will be in no.10 with an overall majority?

I haven’t a clue, but I have always felt that the SNP will have the Commons over a barrel, to get even more money and a referendum.

I think he has a better chance than Polls suggest.

Corbyn's biggest battle is against the Media and in particular Daily newspapers.

If he can galvanise the young to vote then he could well get a majority.

 

[Weststander]

True. I am lucky and have had good health and have not been a "net user " of the NHS but more a net contributor, however, I am getting to the stage where the clock is ticking and, as such, I see the future necessity of a good health service. Maybe as a society we need to re - think our priorities in life, a smaller car, a cheaper holiday a smaller house ? Maybe too much emphasis is put on making money as a measure of success ?

Is it about a lust for money, or just priorities eg a family trip skiing or to Orlando is an immeasurable, intangible event when families can have shared time never to be forgotten? When I’ve worked hard and been lucky enough to do just that, it’s truly for personal family reasons, I barely tell anyone else, I’m not ostentatious or a boaster.

I do agree that others love it though .... outside even state school gates these days, it’s incredible how many many huge Range Rovers, Mercs and Audis are all jostling for a parking spot.

 

[vegster]

If only the EU would play ball. They do nothing tangibly to stop Ireland, Lux and Netherlands being tax havens, in cahoots with these multinational tax cheats.

I'm sure I read that the EU were putting pressure on Eire to tax Apple ( I believe Apple filter their EU earnings/sales through Eire ) at an appropriate rate and they are gunning for Google/FB too.

 

[Weststander]

I think he has a better chance than Polls suggest.

Corbyn's biggest battle is against the Media and in particular Daily newspapers.

If he can galvanise the young to vote then he could well get a majority.

Very complex. What’s going to happen in the marginals, what about anti-EU northern, Welsh and midlands constituencies, will the LibDems under Swinson collapse despite on paper they should be gathering millions of devout Remainers, will there be a huge new gaff by a key Tory or Labour individual?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Anybody see that geezer on QT on over £80k? He didn't know he was in the top 5% of earners. He didn't even think he was in the top 50%!

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1197651546940608514?s=19

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He’s not even the worst person on there tonight. That honour goes to the bug eyed, stary, scary Uncle Tom in the blue dress.


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