"The fantasy of addiction" - Peter Htichens

[BadFish]

I hate defending Hitchins but this is missing the point. You can't become an addict to something until you've taken it. You wouldn't know you were an addict until you've taken something for the first time. Hitchins' idea is that if you make sentencing much tougher it would deter people from trying it in the first place. He also argues that, even if it becomes something other than free will when taking a lot of drugs, the initial point of becoming addicted was a decision made by the user.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea that some people are able to extricate themselves of all free will by suggesting that they had a pre-disposition to become addicted. I'm also not sure that Hitchins claim that tougher sentencing would deter drugs is correct.

My feeling is that there are many factors which influence whether a person is going to taker drugs or not take drugs. Of these many factors legality is way down the list of influences.

 

[Commander]

The psychological addiction to harmful substance begins years before an addict has injected heroin or downed a pint. It begins when the 6 year old girl is continually raped by her father and brothers, it begins when the child is beaten and starved by their parents, it begins when well, you get the idea. The damage that will eventually lead to drug addiction is done way before the needle is found, threats of prison won't stop that, the individual is already way past caring and probably has been for years.

I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps in some cases, but not in all of them by any means.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Many people have addictive personalties. For Hitchens to rubbish it is about as low as a Human being can go. Utterly despicable Man. He should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.

 

[BadFish]

I think there may well be certain imbalances people have that mean their potential for addiction is heightened. Those imbalances might be natural character traits or they might be enforced through things like abuse. This means the potential for addiction can be set at an early age. Are we to expect young people or those facing extreme mental pressures to be cognisant of what the law says? I don't think we can.

It's not as simple as saying "you have a choice not to be an addict." Addictions can consciously arise and unconsciously arise.

Anecdotally you hear so often of addicts replacing one addiction with another. Many end up as gym junkies or take up religion with a fervor that seems ott. So maybe those damaged or intent on escaping don't have a choice of being an addict or not but have a choice of what they become addicted to. Many addicts will talk of childhood binges to certain things, Stephen Fry and sugar springs to mind and seems to be a spring board for other addictions in later life.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

My Father's Father was a conscientous objector in WW1. As a " reward " for this he had to pick up the body parts of his friends in the War fields of France at the age of 17. This lived with him and as an adult coped with alcohol until he died at 63. According to Hitchens he was a criminal and should have had more will power. If I could meet Hitchens I would punch him very hard in the face.

 

[BadFish]

I believe that many users/abusers of drugs and alcohol are using it to self medicate because they cannot regulate themselves emotionally. They use to soothe themeselves and not neccessarily to get a high. Particularly those with mental health issues. A high proportion of people who are bi polar smoke and drink to excess. It is likely that those mental health issues are either genetic or caused by early environmental factors when they were very young, during their early childhood and therefore totally beyond their control. To treat those people as criminals (as advocated by Hitchen) is totally missing the point.

This, drugs and alcholism are a form of escapism, if you cannot deal with what the person is escaping from then chances are they will go back to the self medicating you mention. This explains why many people get clean on programs and in institutions but end up addicted again when they go back to the life that caused them to use in the first place. The reasons behind people's addiction is surely key to their recovery not the threat of prison.

 

[BadFish]

I would say that drug addicts are the runt end of society. Out at large they commit crimes to support their habits, clog up the hospital emergency centres and occupy our Social Services. In prison they can be isolated and helped to recover.

Funny you should say that because the smack addicts that I went to school with were the opposite of this. In school they were, cool popular, good looking and definately in the top tier of the social hierarchy. Maybe my school was the exception but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

If he wished to die by taking drugs then I don't have a real problem with that. If he wished to come off drugs then I would hope he would get all the help he deserved.

There is a real difference between killing people and them killing themselves.

This is really quite disgraceful tbh.

 

[BadFish]

I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps in some cases, but not in all of them by any means.

What do you believe causes people to become addicts?

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

The trouble with people like Hitchens is that if they do not personally experience it, it does not exist. There are many people like this. Totally lacking in empathy, compassion and understanding. Maybe some life events should be beset on him that brings him to his knees and he turns to alcohol or drugs until he is in the gutter looking at his own reflection in a pool of water praying to God. That is the least he deserves.

 

[BadFish]

The trouble with people like Hitchens is that if they do not personally experience it, it does not exist. There are many people like this. Totally lacking in empathy, compassion and understanding. Maybe some life events should be beset on him that brings him to his knees and he turns to alcohol or drugs until he is in the gutter looking at his own reflection in a pool of water praying to God. That is the least he deserves.

My guess is that stuff has happened to him (his brother being thought of my many as an absolute top bloke who had many friends may be the primary thing) and these things have made him the heartless, souless, attention seeking cockwomble we see today. People deal with their insecurities and hang ups in many different ways, some choose drugs, alcohol, gambling or sex, he has chosen to be Peter Hitchens. Maybe compassion, therapy and help from the community can help him or maybe a stern prison sentence is what is needed.

 

[Questions]

I've lost two friends to drugs and both had absolutely shitty childhoods and I mean shitty childhoods. Things happened to them that I would never put on here. Is it a coincidence ? I think drink and drugs are a crutch but it's all about what you have to lose if it grips you. In the cold light of day what will you lose ? Will it matter ? To some who have been through absolute torment the dangers don't seem that formidable.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

My guess is that stuff has happened to him (his brother being thought of my many as an absolute top bloke who had many friends may be the primary thing) and these things have made him the heartless, souless, attention seeking cockwomble we see today. People deal with their insecurities and hang ups in many different ways, some choose drugs, alcohol, gambling or sex, he has chosen to be Peter Hitchens. Maybe compassion, therapy and help from the community can help him or maybe a stern prison sentence is what is needed.

I agree. The bloke is beyond contempt. Is he really believing what comes out of his mouth ? Although vile he is clearly intelligent so maybe it is some sort of elaborate wind up. Either way he is an utter disgrace to humanity.

 

[Questions]

The trouble with people like Hitchens is that if they do not personally experience it, it does not exist. There are many people like this. Totally lacking in empathy, compassion and understanding. Maybe some life events should be beset on him that brings him to his knees and he turns to alcohol or drugs until he is in the gutter looking at his own reflection in a pool of water praying to God. That is the least he deserves.

I understand your sentiments to a degree there US but I wouldn't wish total despair on him or anyone else.
He is ignorant. I don't think you'd really wish it on him either would you ?

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

I understand your sentiments to a degree there US but I wouldn't wish total despair on him or anyone else.
He is ignorant. I don't think you'd really wish it on him either would you ?

Probably not but he has gone too far this time. I thought Perry gave a good defence under the circumstances as he must have thought Hitchens was on a wind up. Rise above it Questions, you are right.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I always say it in these threads, you can't lump everything together under the banner of "drugs" and have a sensible debate about it. Every drug has to be taken on it's merits. What most people are talking about when they mention addicts is actually heroin addicts and nothing else. If you were having a debate about different diets you wouldn't lump vegetarians in the same braket as someone who only ate McDonalds because they were both eating food.

Taking heroin is a world away from taking alcohol, MDMA, coke, speed or ket.

 

[Questions]

I always say it in these threads, you can't lump everything together under the banner of "drugs" and have a sensible debate about it. Every drug has to be taken on it's merits. What most people are talking about when they mention addicts is actually heroin addicts and nothing else. If you were having a debate about different diets you wouldn't lump vegetarians in the same braket as someone who only ate McDonalds because they were both eating food.

Taking heroin is a world away from taking alcohol, MDMA, coke, speed or ket.

This is correct, and well put.

 

[Guinness Boy]

My guess is that stuff has happened to him (his brother being thought of my many as an absolute top bloke who had many friends may be the primary thing) and these things have made him the heartless, souless, attention seeking cockwomble we see today. People deal with their insecurities and hang ups in many different ways, some choose drugs, alcohol, gambling or sex, he has chosen to be Peter Hitchens. Maybe compassion, therapy and help from the community can help him or maybe a stern prison sentence is what is needed.

Brilliant. Absolutely this.

 

[BadFish]

I always say it in these threads, you can't lump everything together under the banner of "drugs" and have a sensible debate about it. Every drug has to be taken on it's merits. What most people are talking about when they mention addicts is actually heroin addicts and nothing else. If you were having a debate about different diets you wouldn't lump vegetarians in the same braket as someone who only ate McDonalds because they were both eating food.

Taking heroin is a world away from taking alcohol, MDMA, coke, speed or ket.

Very true

 

[Commander]

What do you believe causes people to become addicts?

A large number of different things. I'm not qualified to speak on the subject, but saying that it is always to do with having a bad childhood or something is nonsense, plenty of hugely privileged people end up with addictions. If we're talking about drugs, and as Billy the Fish says, you can't label them all under one banner, then the actual addiction is surely to do with a chemical reaction rather than something deep rooted. But I t's what caused people to take the drug the first few times that is the root cause. Sure, some of it must be down to a deep rooted need to escape, but some of it must also be down to curiosity, falling in with the wrong crowd, boredom, any number of things. Not every drug addict is a waster from a broken home and an abused childhood.