The EU- the definitive NSC referendum

[Cheshire Cat]

mmmmmmm we've been through 3 recessions whilst we've been members haven't we ,AND TO TOP IT OFF BAILING OTHER COUNTRIES OUT
regards
DR

Two world wars and one world cup...

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

And yet non-EU members such as Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein have EXACTLY the same capabilities and rights under OJEC as EU members.

So the premise put forward by the pro EU lobby that we would end up as a banana republic within a decade of exiting the EU isn't entirely accurate ?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Two world wars and one world cup...

doo dah , doo dah

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I don't know enough about that to comment, but I do know that the OJEC system has been great in helping us to find contracts and my understanding was that it was a great tool for European businesses. That's all I knew. I know a bit more now.

OJEC is the equivalent of GCAT which any EU based company can also apply to join. And therein lies the problem, too many people think we get benefits from the EU when in fact they are there regardless.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So the premise put forward by the pro EU lobby that we would end up as a banana republic within a decade of exiting the EU isn't entirely accurate ?

Correct - scaremongering at its best ( or worst ). They have no way of knowing what will be negotiated if we leave - they just assume the worst !

 

[Hamilton]

OJEC is the equivalent of GCAT which any EU based company can also apply to join. And therein lies the problem, too many people think we get benefits from the EU when in fact they are there regardless.

Hang on. I'm not basing my support for membership of the EU on the OJEC (OJEU as is now), so don't be using that as some flag to wave. Looking into it, OJEU appears to be available to any business in the wider European Economic Community of which all EU states are members.

Back in your box.

 

[Chicken Run]

No thanks!

 

[Hamilton]

No thanks!

Cock!

 

[cunning fergus]

Very definitely In with a capital I and a capital N. I have been a convinced European for about 45 years, since i was in the 6th form at school, and think that any move to do otherwise would be nationally suicidal.

And i also believe that we could be part of a United States of Europe, if that were ever to happen, while still retaining our own national identity and not becoming part of an amorphous mass of Europeans.

Very honestly put, and I think many on here (and in the UK) share your ideological outlook.

To that extent we can spend an eternity speculating about the genuine benefits and genuine disadvantages of our EU membership now and in the future, however for those on either side of the argument the reality is those speculative views will only chime if they accord with their ideological view.

For example if the poll choice was would you rather live in a prosperous, strong independent UK outside the EU OR a less prosperous UK satellite state whose destiny was tied to the EU; how many voting yes would actually change their view?

It is a philosophical point, but important. The reality is we don't know what the future will bring either way, it could be brilliant in the EU, but it could just as likely result in the experience of Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain et al.

It is ideology driving a lot of these views, mine included..............but IF that was the poll choice what would option would you vote for?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Well, the people of NSC have spoken. We're officially pro-EU membership. Either that or The Rivet's debating skills have turned many nos into yeses here.

 

[Stoo82]

If I had seen this - less than 24 hours to vote?? - then I would have voted NO!

 

[BadFish]

Very honestly put, and I think many on here (and in the UK) share your ideological outlook.

To that extent we can spend an eternity speculating about the genuine benefits and genuine disadvantages of our EU membership now and in the future, however for those on either side of the argument the reality is those speculative views will only chime if they accord with their ideological view.

For example if the poll choice was would you rather live in a prosperous, strong independent UK outside the EU OR a less prosperous UK satellite state whose destiny was tied to the EU; how many voting yes would actually change their view?

It is a philosophical point, but important. The reality is we don't know what the future will bring either way, it could be brilliant in the EU, but it could just as likely result in the experience of Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain et al.

It is ideology driving a lot of these views, mine included..............but IF that was the poll choice what would option would you vote for?

I would see that as a biased and faintly ridiculous poll question and would not bother voting. If the poll question was 'Would you rather live in a prosperous UK within the US of Europe or would you prefer to die slowly of hunger and disease in a poverty stricken UK outside of the UK?" I would of course plump for the second option.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well, the people of NSC have spoken. We're officially pro-EU membership. Either that or The Rivet's debating skills have turned many nos into yeses here.

If I had seen this - less than 24 hours to vote?? - then I would have voted NO!

whats most interesting is more or less the same question on here few months ago was 60/40 against the EU.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Doesnt sound enough to keep the country viable....im sure we have something to offer, but cant put my finger on it presently.
If we leave the EU, who do we 'trade' with, and what would we 'trade'?

First it seems the poll is closed so couldn't vote...the worlds biggest trade markets are in the Far East at the moment. We have one of the fastest growing economies in Europe...and yet we import more from Europe than we export,we pay Millions a day which negates anything we get from the EU...the first idea of a European free trade market was a good idea,but slowly and surely the political agenda is creeping in...do you want to be ruled by Brussels whom you cannot vote out...or do you want a vote on who is in OUR Government...definite OUT for me.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

so, if our cars are being undercut, theres not much left is there really...
I understand the reasons people dont like the EU, but tbh, I think the alternative is terrifying.

You really don't know much do you...our biggest earner is Finance/Banking...why do you think the EU want to move banking into central Europe?

 

[cunning fergus]

I would see that as a biased and faintly ridiculous poll question and would not bother voting. If the poll question was 'Would you rather live in a prosperous UK within the US of Europe or would you prefer to die slowly of hunger and disease in a poverty stricken UK outside of the UK?" I would of course plump for the second option.

Be honest, the reason you see it as ridiculous question is because you cannot conceive that the UK could prosper outside of the EU?

It is an undeniable fact is that membership of the EU does not automatically guarantee a nation prosperity, as the recent economic situation in Greece, Cyprus and Spain all very clearly testify.

So, any theory or view in economic terms is largely speculative.

If we were honest with each other however the underlying issue on all the debates is not about economic theory, it's about ideology.

Your response is a classic because when you had to confront a purely philosophical choice that places the speculative economic position in the favour of an independent UK you (a) disregarded it as ridiculous and (b) said you would not bother voting.

Put it another way you don't want a strong independent UK outside the EU whether it could be prosperous or not..........that is not consistent with your ideology.

You do however want a strong EU with a fully absorbed UK part of that arrangement.

Happy for you to prove me wrong of course.

 

[BadFish]

Be honest, the reason you see it as ridiculous question is because you cannot conceive that the UK could prosper outside of the EU?

It is an undeniable fact is that membership of the EU does not automatically guarantee a nation prosperity, as the recent economic situation in Greece, Cyprus and Spain all very clearly testify.

So, any theory or view in economic terms is largely speculative.

If we were honest with each other however the underlying issue on all the debates is not about economic theory, it's about ideology.

Your response is a classic because when you had to confront a purely philosophical choice that places the speculative economic position in the favour of an independent UK you (a) disregarded it as ridiculous and (b) said you would not bother voting.

Put it another way you don't want a strong independent UK outside the EU whether it could be prosperous or not..........that is not consistent with your ideology.

You do however want a strong EU with a fully absorbed UK part of that arrangement.

Happy for you to prove me wrong of course.

It is interesting that you believe you know my thoughts on the EU better than I do. At this point I am an interested fence sitter (if push came to shove and I was asked to answer a poll I would say in (which I did)). My opinions on this subject are not black or white, my views are shades of grey (a position not often held on NSC i know).

Your question is ridiculous because it is leading, biased and presume success of one side of the argument and lack of success on the other. The question we were asked to answer was far fairer and balanced. I agree with your idea that ideology will temper our answers (how could it not?) but your question does not circumvent that it just forces the answers to hold a cerain view.

 

[cunning fergus]

It is interesting that you believe you know my thoughts on the EU better than I do. At this point I am an interested fence sitter (if push came to shove and I was asked to answer a poll I would say in (which I did)). My opinions on this subject are not black or white, my views are shades of grey (a position not often held on NSC i know).

Your question is ridiculous because it is leading, biased and presume success of one side of the argument and lack of success on the other. The question we were asked to answer was far fairer and balanced. I agree with your idea that ideology will temper our answers (how could it not?) but your question does not circumvent that it just forces the answers to hold a cerain view.

Of course it's leading it's meant to be.........if you were only concerned with the economic prosperity of the UK you would say, yes I would be happy with a strong independent UK outside the EU. Everyone would say yes, if that was all these endless debates about the possible benefits or otherwise were about.

But you won't say "yes I would be happy with a strong independent prosperous UK outside the EU, so clearly it's not about the economy............it's something else.

It's ideology with me too, I will admit it...........if the choice was sovereignty and possibly poorer or no sovereignty and possibly richer, I would be 100% on the former all day long.

 

[Gwylan]

whats most interesting is more or less the same question on here few months ago was 60/40 against the EU.

That mirrors what happened in the referendum in 1975. At the start of the campaign, opinion polls suggested that there was something like a 65-35 vote to leave the EEC (as it was then), by the time the referendum was held, it was the other way round.

That's why I think a referendum held in 2017 will still show a vote to stay in (despite what the polls say), as the debate goes on, the voters will keep hold of the EU, for fear of finding something worse (and I'm someone who would vote 'no' if the vote were held today)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Of course it's leading it's meant to be.........if you were only concerned with the economic prosperity of the UK you would say, yes I would be happy with a strong independent UK outside the EU. Everyone would say yes, if that was all these endless debates about the possible benefits or otherwise were about.

But you won't say "yes I would be happy with a strong independent prosperous UK outside the EU, so clearly it's not about the economy............it's something else.

It's ideology with me too, I will admit it...........if the choice was sovereignty and possibly poorer or no sovereignty and possibly richer, I would be 100% on the former all day long.

Jesus. You have been blathering away around the clock for over 3 days on the various EU threads, reciting the same stuff. Do you not have anything better to do? Like sleep for example? Do you not have a job or friends or family to entertain?