[News] The 'Dambusters' raid, 75 years ago today (and tomorrow).

[portlock seagull]

About 1,600 German civilians and Russian forced labourers were drowned by the floods.

Innocence first casualty et al

 

[portlock seagull]

I know, its madness, just for a circus wedding!

My wife said Windsor is becoming unbearable as a place to work this week. All the crazies began camping out on Tuesday, the Americans especially have arrived en masse and security is ramping up by the day, she’s got 4 armed police outside their premises and they’re down a back street! And the number of TV crews and global media is off the scale...it’s not a very big place Windsor when the eyes of the world are fixed on it! Should of moved it to Slough registrar

 

[Triggaaar]

About 1,600 German civilians and Russian forced labourers were drowned by the floods.

Yes it wasn't actually a great mission, but those in the bombers weren't to know that and they risked their lives for the cause in general, which was worthwhile.

 

[jakarta]

About 1,600 German civilians and Russian forced labourers were drowned by the floods.

And hundreds of thousands of Germans and Forced Labourers of all nationalities were killed over the 1942-45 bombing campaigns by the RAF at night and USAAF by day. There is no doubt, however, that strategic bombing (not that the Dams Raid was strictly speaking part of the overall campaign) shortened the war in Europe and saved both Allied and German lives.

 

[Mackenzie]

My Gramps was based at RAF Scampton during the war. He was a blacksmith by trade so joined the ground crew repairing and servicing the planes.

To cut a long story short, one of his jobs was welding the bouncing bombs, weighting them so that they rotated prior to being dropped from the Lancs.

He also worked for fighter command for a while, but he loved those Lancaster’s more than any Spitfire or Hurricane. The main thing that came over to me when I talked about those times with him was a sense of sadness at all the pilots that didn’t return. I wish now that I’d asked him more about what happened, but he was really reticent about talking about it.

I’m very proud of him.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

Terrible thing to do though, 16000 innocents died. It would be considered a war crime today

 

[Spicy]

My nan's brother (so great uncle??) Was a dam buster navigator on a Lancaster.

My mum found all his old war letters and medals in a box in the loft of my nan's house.

My dad saw them and wanted to know more so did a LOAD of research wanting to know more.

Since found out loads. He was shot down over the channel just over the Belgian coast on the return of his 23rd sortie.

We even have the location he was shot down. Where the wreck was found, his squadron, crew, plane number and nickname. (Can't remember exact details off hand)

My dad also found a whole load of WWII maps that he used with notes scribbled on them to help him. They're in almost pristine condition. Not worth a lot in monetary terms but at the same time invaluable memorabilia.

During his research he went with my mum up to RAF Coningsby where the Memorial Flight Lancaster is based and took all the letters and maps with him.

The Lancaster was grounded as it was having repair work done but they spent hours in the museum and having a look around.

They went to a cafe to have a coffee and two blokes in airsuits sat near them. My dad being dad started a conversation asking if they were pilots and was told that they were called Roger and Ian the pilot and navigator of the Lancaster.

It was then that my dad said "I have something in my bag that may interest you" and preceded to show them all the letters, medals and maps he had.

The two blokes. Roger Collins the pilot and Ian Shaw the navigator were awestruck and in awe of it all as they're still serving RAF.

My dad said to Ian that he wanted him to keep two of the maps and gave them to him. At first he wouldn't take them saying they should be museum pieces but my dad insisted. He begrudgingly took them.

As a thankyou Roger said "come with me I have something to show you". And then took them to the hanger that the Lancaster is stored in. Due to the repairs happening they couldn't start it but the two of them gave my mum and dad a personal tour of the whole plane. Every part of it. Even in the cockpit. He allowed my dad to sit in the pilot seat. My mum refused, even after lots of cajoling but insisted that it was a "mans seat, a seat for heroes" and wasn't comfortable sitting in it.

Whilst in the cockpit, Ian, the navigator took the two maps and put one on the board and one on the bench area and said " these stay here, and will never be moved, these maps belong on this plane, as part of history, every time this plane flies be safe in the knowledge that they are here as a mark of respect to those few brave souls".

I personally think it's amazing that my family paid so much and somehow by a twist of luck and being in the right place at the right that they my parents met Roger and Ian.

If ever you see the Lancaster memorial flight know that there is genuine maps from WWII missions in that cockpit.

This was 3 years ago this happened and I saw the Lancaster last year flying. I cried at the thought of this and am now writing it.

My two pennies worth anyway.....

Thank you for sharing that.

 

[nicko31]

The film is still a great watch, a no long time before CGI

 

[Spicy]

About 1,600 German civilians and Russian forced labourers were drowned by the floods.

And how many of our innocents died as a result of German attacks on Britain when our cities were bombed night after night - if you check you will find it is 60,000.

 

[cunning fergus]

Terrible thing to do though, 16000 innocents died. It would be considered a war crime today

On what basis are you concluding that 16,000 “innocents” died?

I can understand that babes in arms, and even children (some of which may have been in the Hitler Youth or League of Maidens) could be construed as innocent, but you are seriously suggesting that no committed supporters of Hitler and/or those Germans (and others) willing to support his aims were killed in this raid?

Bombing dams is now against the Geneva Convention, the historical context about the bombing of the Germandams is that the RAF got there quicker than the Luftwaffe. The Germans had their own bouncing bomb which was rocket propelled and trialled. They had targets like Derwent drawn up, but after the RAF’s success the defences around U.K. dams were strengthened.

 

[arewethereyet?]

Terrible thing to do though, 16000 innocents died. It would be considered a war crime today

What Hitler did was a terrible thing to do and that was to start the bloody war in the first place, 6m Jews murdered, was that not a terrible thing to do, I’m afraid your comment does not bear any relevance.

 

[Trufflehound]

One minor & oft-forgotten postscript to the story is that while Guy Gibson survived this heroic raid, he was shot down and killed 18 months later by accidental 'friendly fire' while flying over the Netherlands during Operation Market Garden. He & his co-pilot that night still lie in a cemetery in the Dutch town of Steenbergen if you're ever in the area and want to pay your respects.

 

[Vicar!]

My mother lived in Lincoln during the war, and was on site during the period. She knew Guy and used to take ‘******’ his dog for walkies from time to time.

 

[portlock seagull]

One minor & oft-forgotten postscript to the story is that while Guy Gibson survived this heroic raid, he was shot down and killed 18 months later by accidental 'friendly fire' while flying over the Netherlands during Operation Market Garden. He & his co-pilot that night still lie in a cemetery in the Dutch town of Steenbergen if you're ever in the area and want to pay your respects.

Disagree it’s oft forgotten it little known. If you’ve ever read the story of the dambusters this is always in the post script / what happened next

 

[portlock seagull]

Terrible thing to do though, 16000 innocents died. It would be considered a war crime today

If we ever encounter total war as a nation again, chances are it wouldn’t and the number would be far higher eg nuclear annilation. Always a bit ridiculous to judge history by today’s standards IMO. A bit like who’s the greatest ever player.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Terrible thing to do though, 16000 innocents died. It would be considered a war crime today

Wondered how long it would be until an apologist surfaced.

 

[jakarta]

One minor & oft-forgotten postscript to the story is that while Guy Gibson survived this heroic raid, he was shot down and killed 18 months later by accidental 'friendly fire' while flying over the Netherlands during Operation Market Garden. He & his co-pilot that night still lie in a cemetery in the Dutch town of Steenbergen if you're ever in the area and want to pay your respects.

Statistically he should died years previously but sadly he was incapable of 'Flying a Desk' as the RAF put it.

After his First Tour of Operations on Bombers his 'rest' was to do a Tour on Night Fighters (he shot down five German Bombers which not only officially made him an 'Ace' but must have been food for thought as a Bomber Pilot) then a second Tour of Bombers and finally commanding 617 Squadron. He was then grounded and spent the rest of the war trying to get back on Operations, which was a fatal mistake.

His final flight was a disaster as, despite officially being a Staff Officer, he somehow wangled his way to being the Master Bomber for a raid (First aircraft in who illuminated the target with Marker Flares).

It all went badly wrong from using an unfamilar Mosquito based at another Airfield to having a Navigator who he had never flown with on Operations. Friendly Fire from a Lancaster might have got him but there is also a theory that he and his Navigator simply didn't switch fuel tanks and they ran out of fuel.

I would love to see a Biopic of his Successor at 617 Squadron, Sir Leonard Cheshire. A fascinating character (the only person in History to had received both the Victoria Cross and, Post-war, the Order of Merit for his role in setting up the Leonard Cheshire Homes charity) I can recommend his Biography No Passing Glory. My favourite part is when he is flying a Mosquito to act as Target Marker and he tells the Squadron to aim at him as he flies over the target!

 

[seagullsoverlincoln]

The bomber command memorial has recently opened in Lincoln,and there are plans to erect a steel Lancaster as you cross the county line into "bomber county".The 617 squadron is the singing section at Sincil Bank.Lincolnites are very proud of their bomber heritage

 

[Chief Wiggum]

For those of you interested and who may be unaware of its existence, the Bomber Command memorial at Beachy Head is well worth a visit.

https://www.warmemorialsonline.org.uk/memorial/196276/

 

[Stat Brother]

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