The Belgium bombing - An interesting perspective

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No!

And I say 'yes'.

There is nothing in that article to warrant your rediculous tirade. The message was 'don't let the terrorists win'. What part of the English language don't you understand? Are you new to this country and struggling with the nuances of its discourse? Go to evening classes before venturing an opinion. It will benefit us all.

('Big G' - says it all. . . . . )

 

[mona]

Interesting thread. If I'm to believe what I read, the ISIS interpretation of the Koran is that they look forward to a final, decisive battle with the unbelievers, which, as good chance would have it, is scheduled to take place around Syria.

At last, I've found something that I, the USA and Russia agree with ISIS on... er... but we disagree on the outcome of this decisive battle.

We shouldn't forget that the first Caliphate and its successor Caliphates terrorised southern Europe for 700 years after the death of the Moslem prophet Mohammed. Not good then, not nice now, if we can't stop it.

To the questions in this piece, yes there is something we can fairly do in the UK: separate church and state and write a constitution which forbids religious extremism of any sort, come down hard on religious loonies, Christian, Moslems, whatever. As a state let's remain tolerant of tolerant thought systems, and intolerant of intolerant ones.

Well said.
And an end to Religious Education in state schools. Much as I enjoyed bible stories as a kid probably for the wrong reasons.

 

[BadFish]

Not quite sure I follow your point, maybe I'm being thick.

My point is that we, the UK, can hardly be even-handed about dealing with 'religious' nutters while our state is predicated and intertwined with the Christian religion (i.e. church and state).

If the UK disestablished from the Christian faith we would be able to deal much more evenhandedly (and effectively) with all and any instances of 'religious' madness.

In short I'm calling for the UK to become a perfectly secular state, it's the only way I can see our having a way to deal with these people.

I think i missed your point, thanks for the clarification, I see what you are saying.

I am not religious at all but I would have thought (maybe i would hope) that even with a link to a certain faith a government should be capable of acting on its laws regarding hate speech. Having links to Christianity should not impede a government from acting against people using Christianity to spread hatred.

Having said this there appears to be something stopping governments from acting against those spreading hate. From what i can see the balance between hate speech and free speech is somewhat skewed. We are forever rallying to the cause of free speech without acknowledging the responsibility that goes with it.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

I see the tribe is out in force on this thread.

 

[KT17]

I think i missed your point, thanks for the clarification, I see what you are saying.

I am not religious at all but I would have thought (maybe i would hope) that even with a link to a certain faith a government should be capable of acting on its laws regarding hate speech. Having links to Christianity should not impede a government from acting against people using Christianity to spread hatred.

Having said this there appears to be something stopping governments from acting against those spreading hate. From what i can see the balance between hate speech and free speech is somewhat skewed. We are forever rallying to the cause of free speech without acknowledging the responsibility that goes with it.

Our current problem is that our royal family and the structure of the C of E are intractably linked: therefore we (the UK) cannot move against Islam extremism without it looking like a crusade of Christianity vs Islam. If we dissolved that relationship we could take on Islam extremism from a civil, secular, non-denominational way which takes out of play any suggestion of a religious basis to the countries position.

 

[BadFish]

Our current problem is that our royal family and the structure of the C of E are intractably linked: therefore we (the UK) cannot move against Islam extremism without it looking like a crusade of Christianity vs Islam. If we dissolved that relationship we could take on Islam extremism from a civil, secular, non-denominational way which takes out of play any suggestion of a religious basis to the countries position.

Fair point

 

[Big G]

And I say 'yes'.

There is nothing in that article to warrant your rediculous tirade. The message was 'don't let the terrorists win'. What part of the English language don't you understand? Are you new to this country and struggling with the nuances of its discourse? Go to evening classes before venturing an opinion. It will benefit us all.

('Big G' - says it all. . . . . )

Oh get over yourself!
Quite what the hell you are going on about being new to the country and the rest of your drivel about the English language is quite frankly the most pathetic retort I've ever heard.
And explain to us why a user name says it all and means you're a tosser?

 

[drew]

Simon Jenkins is right. Making a big deal about the imminent threat from more expected attacks simply feeds the terrorists' wish to terrify everyone. It tells everyone that they are beating us.

It never used to be like that. When Brighton was bombed by the IRA, what did we do? We went to work and grumbled about the traffic. These days we would be expected to deck the Clock Tower with candles while the rest of the world played "Pray for Brighton" for the best part of a month.

I believe yesterday far more people went to work than stayed at home!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Normally I have plenty of time for your views.

1. I read the Guardian once a year. I am aware of Simon Jenkins. he is not a left wing warrior. Don't patronize me about 'Guardian faithful'.

2. Of course islamic terrorism is nothing to do with Islam (as in, you appear to suggest, Islam is the enemy). Next you will tell me that the IRA is about Catholic terrorism, and Catholics are the enemy and must be destroyed. Presumably you bundle in the labour party and its various luke warm supporters like myself. Want me arrested?

As someone else said. why do threads such as these have to be hijacked by a tiny number of right wing idiots. I really didn't think you were in that group, but . . . .

1.) If you only read the Guardian once a year you are not a member of the Guardian faithful so how am I patronising you? Also I didn't mention Simon Jenkins political background it is irrelevant but his opinion piece does play towards what a typical Guardian reader would like to think in my opinion. Playing down the threat is neither sensible or realistic no matter how desirable.

2.) The view Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is not even believed by those courageous Muslims desperately trying to fight extremism and combat the growth of Islamism in their communities. It is an extremely naïve and dangerous view but I'm not sure you actually believe this as you seem to think I was suggesting Islam and Islamic terrorism are the same thing.

To clarify I do not think Islam is a religion of peace or war it can be interpreted by it's followers in numerous ways which is of course part of the problem. As we know and hopefully agree it is a load of made up nonsense but it does provide the foundation for many irrational beliefs and actions which can lead to violence. Religion relies on indoctrination and compliance to thrive all it takes is a varying of the message (divine command theory) to make otherwise rational people believe in and carry out terrible crimes. Belief in a literal interpretation of Islam/Koran is incompatible with life in a liberal western democracy and a major obstacle to integration in my view therefore unwelcome. Hope this helps clarify my position.

Trouble is as far as I can see many of the 'right wing idiots' have a far better grasp of reality than some on the left whose head in the sand view has in part been the cause of many of the problems we see today. Not that I necessarily include you in that group!

 

[KT17]

Has anyone involved with this thread actually read the Koran?

If so, thoughts?

(PS Yes I have)

 

[heathgate]

I agree but doesn't this come under the Hate Speech laws already in the UK? Surely the framework is there to enact your idea?

Of course it does, which is why, if this fella doesn't already know that, I refuse to correct his ill informed spouting.

 

[heathgate]

Well said.
And an end to Religious Education in state schools. Much as I enjoyed bible stories as a kid probably for the wrong reasons.

Presumably you also endorse the banning of any religious education... not just the 'bible' based type.

 

[KT17]

Of course it does, which is why, if this fella doesn't already know that, I refuse to correct his ill informed spouting.

Sorry, can you elucidate your point?

 

[kevo]

1.) If you only read the Guardian once a year you are not a member of the Guardian faithful so how am I patronising you? Also I didn't mention Simon Jenkins political background it is irrelevant but his opinion piece does play towards what a typical Guardian reader would like to think in my opinion. !

There is absolutely no logic in that statement whatsoever. Jenkins used to edit The Times, a Murdoch newspaper, yet you are accusing him of peddaling left-wing opinions. Why on earth would the politics of the person who wrote the article be 'irrelevant'? Yet you think this piece is what "the typical Guardian reader would like to think". What utter BS.

 

[mona]

Presumably you also endorse the banning of any religious education... not just the 'bible' based type.

Reluctantly I do. My experience of it, working as a teacher, was that it stirred up trouble. For instance, the Jewish community were presented as totally observant. The secular element of British Jews was ignored which was ridiculous for someone who'd grown up in B&H. Other religious minorities were treated similarly.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Has anyone involved with this thread actually read the Koran?

If so, thoughts?

(PS Yes I have)

Not all of it, it sounded very much like the bible to me....

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Well said.
And an end to Religious Education in state schools. Much as I enjoyed bible stories as a kid probably for the wrong reasons.

And 'faith' academies....

 

[JC Footy Genius]

There is absolutely no logic in that statement whatsoever. Jenkins used to edit The Times, a Murdoch newspaper, yet you are accusing him of peddaling left-wing opinions. Why on earth would the politics of the person who wrote the article be 'irrelevant'? Yet you think this piece is what "the typical Guardian reader would like to think". What utter BS.

Because journalists often write opinion suited to their target audience, is that difficult to understand?

 

[mona]

And 'faith' academies....

Very much so!

 

[KT17]

Not all of it, it sounded very much like the bible to me....

I'm no bible basher... but you should read the Koran through. It's a choppy, killy read...