nicko31
Well-known member
It really is a waste of time trying to debate with these people, they’re gone, they have the football scarf on and they’re not taking it off.
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[Politics] The 2024 US Election - *MATCH DAY*
- Thread starter Zeberdi
- Start date
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 18,173
Yeah but you are looking at all the evidence and taking a balanced view.
If you just believe every excuse Donald makes and turn a blind eye to the evidence (grrr democrats, main stream media grr) you'll see that he is a bloody American hero.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 1,058
You are aware I am admitting he is guilty of a crime here just not the espionage act? Being hyper partisan is believing the Muller enquiry, That valuing your own property is an act of fraud even though the loans been repaid and thats not how loans work.
Keep reaching.
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
I wonder why he hadn't given the ones they found in his office, including in his desk drawer, back?
Your subject, the superfluous 'in', and a bit of your spelling are almost correct.
The Crawly drongo is doing a bad job of defending Trump. However, there is something compelling about @lasvegan's (presumed) narrative that when you wash off the greasepaint, there is very little of substance between Biden and the orange bungle****. If you can tolerate some buffoonery, some lies, some hubris, and just focus on your income, then why not vote Trump?
I am not saying I accept the argument (and I am probably someone who can tolerate a loss of excitement and a lack of a big fat erection of Making Britain Great - other nations are available - so I'm not in need of a jingo hit) but the distance between sleepy Joe and the bungle**** may not be so extreme as we on the UK left may feel. I mean, I feel it, but I dislike all carpetbaggers, liars, bullies and molesters. But if the pound in your pocket is your bottom line (other currencies are available) you may be able to vote for whatever Twat is promising the marginally better deal for you and your interests without holding your nose.
I loathe Trump far more than I worry about sleepy Joe, but who am I to insist that my values are better than those of, for example, a redneck?
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Seagull58
In the Algarve
Good Man. You forgot hypocrites though - I detest them as well.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,813
- Thread starter
- #1,809
No one is accusing Trump of being a spy - in that sense, the Espionage Act would seem the wrong Act to apply but multiple people have been found guilty of retaining national security information under the Act with no intention of harming the US with it.
The Espionage Act relates to specifically to material of national security value and dosen’t require such papers to be declassified or classified - nor does it require the prosecutors to prove any knowledge on Trump’s part that papers relating to national security could do harm to the US if not properly secure, only that a reasonable person would think so. One does not have to show intention to use such information against the US either. Simply not handling them in a secure way or withholding them over time from the FBI and defence community who repeatedly asked them back, can be a breach of the Act and this is exactly what he has been charged with:
18 U.S.C. §§ 793, (d) makes it a crime to remove, copy or share national defense information, or to “willfully [retain]” national defense information and “[fail] to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it”—
As I said in my post above about this:
It doesn’t matter whether Trump thinks he declassified the documents or not or whether he realised their importance, just that he had ample opportunity to return papers relating to national security matters when asked and refused to do so …
18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
Klaas
I've changed this
- Nov 1, 2017
- 2,656
It has some merit, but then you remember Trump claims he won the last election and incited an insurrection. The MAGA lot are basically a crazed cult, but anyone who says 'They're all the same' while voting for him is part of the problem too.
Weren't they all Antifa? That was the first story, the rioters were all Antifa and other pinko liberals under 'false flags' trying to give honest-to-goodness Trump supporters a bad name - as if Trumpers would ever do something as unAmerican as attempt to overturn an election result. However all the prosecutions were of Trump supporters, which either means all the Anitifa were incredibly intelligent and managed to get Trump patsys arrested for their crimes - or there weren't any and Trump supporters really DID want to overturn the result.
herecomesaregular
We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
If only Trump had got Delboy and Rodney in to clean his chandeliers, coincidentally while he was having a crap.
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Yes. I suppose I was trying to express how it is possible that ostensibly sensible people in the US can vote for Trump.
The MAGA cult is indeed crazed, but I wasn't thinking about them. We have crazed loons who support our two main parties (albeit whereas the crazed tory loons would back a pig in a blue rosette, the labour loons seem more interested in going on protest marches, opposing their own party and enacting "no compromise with the electorate" initiatives). I was thinking more about tens of millions of 'silent majority' Americans who just shrug their shoulders at Trump's antics and vote for him without liking him. Much the same way a lot of people (perhaps the majority) decide how to vote in the UK.
I think we need to disentangle gun totin' MAGA loons from rank and file American voters. In much the same way we need to disentangle 'anti-woke coalition' tory gammon from rank and file members of the public who generally favour conservatism. 'We' (of the self-styled centre left) will never win the hearts and minds of the persuadable by tarring the persuadable with the same brush as we tar the lunatics.
And I say that as someone with a long history of badmouthing conservatives. Am I still on a learning curve? It would be pleasing if so
As for the 'there all the same' contingent, I feel this is often a mantra invoked by right wing lunatics when they have lost an argument, rather than an expression of middle ground apathy. This is also probably the reason why we are hearing the mantra so often these last few years.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 1,058
No one is accusing Trump of being a spy - in that sense, the Espionage Act would seem the wrong Act to apply but multiple people have been found guilty of retaining national security information under the Act with no intention of harming the US with it.
The Espionage Act relates to specifically to material of national security value and dosen’t require such papers to be declassified or classified - nor does it require the prosecutors to prove any knowledge on Trump’s part that papers relating to national security could do harm to the US if not properly secure, only that a reasonable person would think so. One does not have to show intention to use such information against the US either. Simply not handling them in a secure way or withholding them over time from the FBI and defence community who repeatedly asked them back, can be a breach of the Act and this is exactly what he has been charged with:
18 U.S.C. §§ 793, (d) makes it a crime to remove, copy or share national defense information, or to “willfully [retain]” national defense information and “[fail] to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it”—
As I said in my post above about this:
It doesn’t matter whether Trump thinks he declassified the documents or not or whether he realised their importance, just that he had ample opportunity to return papers relating to national security matters when asked and refused to do so …
18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
www.law.cornell.edu
Not true. The espionage went from prosecuting people for spying to those who leaked classified information.
What is the Espionage Act?
What to know about the law that is used to prosecute spying and leaks of classified information
www.voanews.com
"The Espionage Act was enacted decades before the executive branch established the current system of classifying national security secrets in 1951. In modern times, the law is often used to prosecute the disclosure of classified documents, but it can also be used in the case of a disclosure of any national defense documents that could harm the United States."
Also
"
18 U.S.C. §§ 793, (d) makes it a crime to remove, copy or share national defense information, or to “willfully [retain]” national defense information and “[fail] to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it”—"
Saying you haven't found it yet as they are buried in 100 boxes is not willfully . After moving out no wonder so many are accused of having misplaced documents, its just the one who is being prosecuted.
This was 4 years ago, or getting on for it. Its amazing how all these crimes are being prosecuted in an election year, pure coincidence no doubt. In fact theres been one case to get it moved into the election run in which the supreme court booted, brought by prosecutor smith.
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
Mr Trump has said a lot about those documents over the years; that he didn't have them; that he did have them but they were his; that he'd declassified the classified ones; that he'd given them all back; and that the FBI had planted them.
So if I took a load of documents from your house, some of which you claim are important to you, such as the deeds to your house, and if I claim that I can't give them back to you because I don't have them, can't remember taking them, and wouldn't even know where to look for them because if for sake of argument I did take them (but I didn't) they could be miss-placed after accidentally being buried in 100 boxes, you'd be OK with that?Not true. The espionage went from prosecuting people for spying to those who leaked classified information.
What is the Espionage Act?
What to know about the law that is used to prosecute spying and leaks of classified information
"The Espionage Act was enacted decades before the executive branch established the current system of classifying national security secrets in 1951. In modern times, the law is often used to prosecute the disclosure of classified documents, but it can also be used in the case of a disclosure of any national defense documents that could harm the United States."
Also
"
18 U.S.C. §§ 793, (d) makes it a crime to remove, copy or share national defense information, or to “willfully [retain]” national defense information and “[fail] to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it”—"
Saying you haven't found it yet as they are buried in 100 boxes is not willfully . After moving out no wonder so many are accused of having misplaced documents, its just the one who is being prosecuted.
This was 4 years ago, or getting on for it. Its amazing how all these crimes are being prosecuted in an election year, pure coincidence no doubt. In fact theres been one case to get it moved into the election run in which the supreme court booted, brought by prosecutor smith.
The essence of Trump's bullshit is that he is claiming (or maybe it's just you) that he didn't take anything classified, because nothing classified has yet been found. But once a classified document has been found he is a guilty as if he had taken the deeds from your house. You are attempting to exonerate him from willfully (knowingly) taking classified material on the grounds that someone (Trump himself?) 'can't find' the documents? Wow.
I'll remember that going forward. It means I can steal anything, and as long as I can't remember whether I stole it, or where I put it, I can claim innocence. And what's more, anyone who disagrees is a persecutor.
He didn't say that though did he. He moved the boxes to ensure that they wouldn't be searched. They were not 'misplaced', and he doesn't appear to be arguing that they were. His argument is that he had 'declassified' them (despite there being no evidence of this happening).
You can't make up a defence that even Trump hasn't come up with.
On this occasion, the normally scrupulously fair and logical dingo seems to have had some sort of cognitive malfunction.
I wonder if he can be repaired?
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
27 July 2023 was in a Presidential election year?
My apologies, the above is the date of the superseding indictment, the original one was handed up on 8 June 2023.
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- Oct 12, 2022
- 2,677
It’s depressing, frankly. The Dingo I can see genuinely believes, but @lasvegan is either just trolling, or performing the most incredible cognitive gymnastics to skip over the glaring logical inconsistencies involved.