[Politics] The 2024 US Election - *MATCH DAY*

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Eh? What is your definition of socialism?

As a member of the labour party I see 'socialism' as an almost non-doctrinaire set of structures, that are context-dependent, and designed to bring more benefit to more people, and foster collaboration. That can stretch from local civic initiatives like litter clearing, park enhancement, and volunteering, through to collectivist 'taxation' into a pot to create a more efficient national structure like the NHS (before it became the subject of 'market forces') and a rail system (sadly ruined by privatization) and a postal service (now somewhat redundant, but necessary for those who will never be online) etc.

And yet those on the 'loony' wing of the right think socialism is taking from the middle classes (all of this lot think they are middle class) in order to subsidize the feckless poor, the single mother of five (by different fathers) and the payment of vast sums of money to communist union members so they can sit around drinking tea, reading the Daily Star, and plotting revolution. Probably Islamic.

 

[Zeberdi]

Two pages of irrelevant posts of people just attacking each other - any one could be forgiven for thinking there’s a deliberate attempt to derail the thread.

Meanwhile - back on topic and back on the campaign trail, Trump will be looking to do well in the Iowa Caucuses this evening - Usually a good litmus test for Republican voters - more than a 10% win in Iowa over Haley or De Santis would be the Republican nomination likely in the bag for Trump.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-seeks-knockout-punch-iowa-delivers-first-verdict-republican-race-2024-01-15/

 

[raymondo]

Two pages of irrelevant posts of people just attacking each other - any one could be forgiven for thinking there’s a deliberate attempt to derail the thread.

Meanwhile - back on topic and back on the campaign trail, Trump will be looking to do well in the Iowa Caucuses this evening - Usually a good litmus test for Republican voters - more than a 10% win in Iowa over Haley or De Santis would be the Republican nomination likely in the bag for Trump.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-seeks-knockout-punch-iowa-delivers-first-verdict-republican-race-2024-01-15/

I'm hoping he gets stuffed...but I doubt it somehow

 

[Cordwainer]

Fascist!

Go to bed spotty

 

[Zeberdi]

I'm hoping he gets stuffed...but I doubt it somehow

Yeah it’s not looking looking likely is it - Haley is the nearest rival on 20% - Santis may drop out which may help Haley - although her more moderate form of Republicanism may not appeal to Santis supporters but if it means Haley can close the gap, there may be a race for the nomination yet.

Results expected tomorrow- live on CNN tonight
and other US MSM streams. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/live-blog/rcna133678

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I can't think of any definition which doesn't include the ownership of businesses being shared among the community. Bloom owns businesses and profits from them in part thanks to the people who work for them. That's capitalism, and quite the opposite of socialism.

Ownership shared among the community is communism.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism but everything wrong with greed.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I'm posting way above your pay grade, carry on with whatever trivia you were doing. You can join the other trolls on ignore , bye.

f*** me … but I didn’t think you put up the white flag this quickly.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Has anyone seen the Republican video God gave us Trump ? Only in America.

 

[A1X]

It always amuses me when people cite economic issues as a reason to vote for Trump. The only man in history to have gone bankrupt while owning a casino.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Has anyone seen the Republican video God gave us Trump ? Only in America.

The whole country is a f***ed up group of dysfunctional morons

 

[Bodian]

I always worry about people who put spaces before commas. Bushy used to do that. I'm wondering whether it might be pathognomonic

How dare you force me to learn a new word, HWT! That wasn't the sort of education I was expecting on this thread!

I have to look up a word or expression every few weeks from his posts!

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Watching Newsnight good God (haha) these people are some f***ed up people. Land of the free. That's free of any intelligence

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Jason Miller you are a tool, a prick, a numpty, DANGEROUS

 

[Triggaaar]

Ownership shared among the community is communism.

No, what I said was socialism. Shared ownership of all property is communism, but shared ownership of profits from business is socialism. A socialist society would not have billionaire business owners.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism but everything wrong with greed.

Nothing to do with what we were discussing.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm posting way above your pay grade

carry on with whatever trivia you were doing. You can join the other trolls on ignore , bye.

You must have the entire forum on ignore, so who exactly are you trying to chat with?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

No, what I said was socialism. Shared ownership of all property is communism, but shared ownership of profits from business is socialism. A socialist society would not have billionaire business owners.

I don't think that, by that definition, there's anything to stop a socialist society having billionaire business / asset owners, as long as they're paying tax on the profits they make from their assets.

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't think that, by that definition, there's anything to stop a socialist society having billionaire business / asset owners, as long as they're paying tax on the profits they make from their assets.

Well Bloom pays tax, so I guess the Tories are socialists

So let's google what socialism means (I haven't missed any out, I've grabbed the first ones I found):

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership

Socialists believe that sharing ownership of the means of production equally among society would increase people's quality of life.

Socialism is, broadly speaking, a political and economic system in which property and the means of production are owned in common, typically controlled by the state or government. Socialism is based on the idea that common or public ownership of resources and means of production leads to a more equal society.


I'd be interested to see where you and @Thunder Bolt are getting your definition from

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Well Bloom pays tax, so I guess the Tories are socialists

So let's google what socialism means (I haven't missed any out, I've grabbed the first ones I found):

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership

Socialists believe that sharing ownership of the means of production equally among society would increase people's quality of life.

Socialism is, broadly speaking, a political and economic system in which property and the means of production are owned in common, typically controlled by the state or government. Socialism is based on the idea that common or public ownership of resources and means of production leads to a more equal society.


I'd be interested to see where you and @Thunder Bolt are getting your definition from

I was responding to the definition you'd written in your own post.

But if you want me to respond to those definitions, it's not incompatible for the means of production to be either directly owned or controlled by the government or wider society, but for assets (i.e. housing, land, property such as football clubs) to be owned by an individual.

 

[Triggaaar]

I was responding to the definition you'd written in your own post.

My posts were replying to TB, and you're saying a socialist society can have billionaire business owners, but it can't, because they can't own the businesses that make them billionaires, as those businesses need to be owned by the community. We already have a system where billionaire business owners pay tax on their profits - not enough tax IMO, but if they were taxed a bit more, we wouldn't suddenly be a socialist society.

But if you want me to respond to those definitions, it's not incompatible for the means of production to be either directly owned or controlled by the government or wider society, but for assets (i.e. housing, land, property such as football clubs) to be owned by an individual.

Yes, assets such as your house can be owned by a private individual, but you should have made the money through your labour, not by owning businesses that make money from other people's labour. So while it might be ok to own a football club, no one would have the money required to own one like ours.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

My posts were replying to TB, and you're saying a socialist society can have billionaire business owners, but it can't, because they can't own the businesses that make them billionaires, as those businesses need to be owned by the community. We already have a system where billionaire business owners pay tax on their profits - not enough tax IMO, but if they were taxed a bit more, we wouldn't suddenly be a socialist society.

That's not what you said in the post I originally replied to. You specifically referred to shared ownership of the profits defining socialism:

No, what I said was socialism. Shared ownership of all property is communism, but shared ownership of profits from business is socialism.

This does not exclude the possibility of an individual/s owning a business worth over a billion pounds, while sharing the profits with the rest of society.