[Politics] The 2024 US Election - *MATCH DAY*

[FatSuperman]

I think people have a fundamental right to use a toilet exclusive to their biological sex at birth. I hate gender neutral toilets and feel incredibly awkward when a woman is using a cubical while I’m at a urinal or an adjoining cubicle. I can’t even imagine how awkward some women feel, especially if she has experienced sexual harassment or worse.

As for trans people, the obvious solution is a third toilet, but given the huge expense for limited use they would see, there is no easy solution presently.

But shared toilets for men and women can do one.

I agree that would make me uncomfortable, mainly because I think I'd be making them uncomfortable. But I have never even seen a shared toilet where there is a urinal in the same space as the sinks / cubicals. Obviously that is a stupid solution.

Gender neutral toilets are JUST TOILETS. I have one in my home. So do you. One person can go in at once. At many, many cafes, bars and restaurants the toilets are gender neutral... because there is only a small number of toilets. Cubicals separate from the sinks seems the easy solution.

Obviously doesn't stop men attacking women.

 

[jcdenton08]

I agree that would make me uncomfortable, mainly because I think I'd be making them uncomfortable. But I have never even seen a shared toilet where there is a urinal in the same space as the sinks / cubicals. Obviously that is a stupid solution.

Gender neutral toilets are JUST TOILETS. I have one in my home. So do you. One person can go in at once. At many, many cafes, bars and restaurants the toilets are gender neutral... because there is only a small number of toilets. Cubicals separate from the sinks seems the easy solution.

Obviously doesn't stop men attacking women.

Many new theatres are forcing shared communal toilets or converting existing toilets to be mixed use. One example being The National Theatre. The urinals are side by side with cubicles for mixed use.

A gender neutral toilet at home is, you’ll admit, a stupid example made petulantly, as I was clearly referring to public toilets. Similarly, one single mixed use toilet in the back of a Starbucks is also different to a communal toilet area as described above.

 

[A1X]

I appreciate this is now just massively derailing the thread, but surely the toilets thing is just a red herring in this? If evil men want to attack women then they won't just not do it because the toilet issue has been solved, they'll go somewhere else to do it.

The issue is a culture where men think it's desirable or acceptable to attack women in the first place.

In that context, electing Trump as US President seems at best counterproductive.

 

[FatSuperman]

Why are you banging on about toilets? Most of my posts have been focussing on homes for abused women. And if you argue there that men can go in anyway, even though it's against the rules, so there is no point having rules to stop them, I would decidedly disagree.

I don't care who uses toilets as long as they, broadly speaking, look like they might be that gender and behave correctly. I do care, albeit at third hand because it isn't something that has ever touched my life, about the homes for abused women.

Because that is the example that has been used a lot. On the topic of refuge, I believe you already know that anyone entering is assessed for their risk - both the risk they are in and the risk they pose to others. Women often arrive with children, and some refuges have a policy where older male children are not allowed. So it's not quite as cut and dry as making a law that says "female at birth only". Female drug addicts and people with violent histories are also not often admitted to a refuge with communal spaces. It's obviously a challenge to assess and deal with the complex needs of people seeking refuge - or any kind of help, and their individual circumstances and risks need to be understood - to best help them, and understand the risks they might pose to others using the service.

I haven't given it enough thought. But to try and answer your underlying question in good faith; if I ran a refuge, with communal areas, perhaps shared toilets, common rooms or even bedrooms, then I would be incredibly cautious about letting trans people, violent women, drug abusers, women with older male children in to the refuge. Perhaps I would outright ban all of these people until I had a way of keeping them safe and separate. I would take a leaf out of other refuge's that are having many more single occupancy solutions.

 

[FatSuperman]

Many new theatres are forcing shared communal toilets or converting existing toilets to be mixed use. One example being The National Theatre. The urinals are side by side with cubicles for mixed use.

A gender neutral toilet at home is, you’ll admit, a stupid example made petulantly, as I was clearly referring to public toilets. Similarly, one single mixed use toilet in the back of a Starbucks is also different to a communal toilet area as described above.

Of course, I was more making the point I haven't seen this and I agree it's a stupid idea. Feedback from every gender should tell them that.

We don't need a law on it though do we?

 

[FatSuperman]

In that context, electing Trump as US President seems at best counterproductive.

Love this. Wonderfully understated

 

[Zeberdi]

"The Americans will quit this war, first of all they will not encourage the war," Orban, a close Trump ally, told state radio on Friday ahead of the informal EU summit he is hosting in the Hungarian capital.

Orbán says Europe can’t afford to finance support to Ukraine of Trump backs out.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-pm-orban-says-trump-will-quit-ukraine-war-forcing-eu-rethink-2024-11-08/

Trump’s return is terrible news for Ukraine. Europe should step into the breach – but will it? | Timothy Garton Ash

With Germany’s government collapsing and Europeans so divided in their response to Trump, unity is essential yet elusive, says Guardian columnist Timothy Garton Ash

www.theguardian.com

 

[jcdenton08]

Of course, I was more making the point I haven't seen this and I agree it's a stupid idea. Feedback from every gender should tell them that.

We don't need a law on it though do we?

The National Theatre is a government funded building, not a private enterprise, and these decisions shouldn’t be made unilaterally - which they were. I don’t know if a law is the right term, but there needs to be oversight on this.

 

[Curious Orange]

I do get, I'm trying to explain that the problem isn't the trans people, it's the men that are looking to abuse women - irrespective of how they dress and how they identify. So focusing the solution on stopping anyone identifying as trans, does not solve the problem. Men can just waltz into women's toilets if they want to, they don't even need to put a wig on. If we enact your ban, the number of assaults on women will go down by a number incredibly close to 0. But if for example we had some solution to make women's toilets safer regardless of the gender identity of people going in to them, you can bet we'd have a better result.

My point, is that the focus is continuously on the trans people when we all know that isn't going to make the difference. And the reason we focus on it is simply because they are different.

Exactly, the issue is actually one of males in female spaces, it has (or should have) nothing to do with how individual people feel about themselves or how they choose to present, as those things are simply not relevant. There is an unwritten societal contract that males do not enter female spaces, which we follow because we understand that this is a safeguarding issue for them.

I have in the past joked that maybe the solution is to change the signs to show either a penis or no penis depending on the usage of the space. But I expect people aren't quite ready for such a blunt and crude solution.

And yes, I realise this would cause issues for a tiny portion of society, but I have no issue with communal spaces, or females using male ones (there were always girls using the stalls in the gents in the club at my Uni and nobody gave a toss).

 

[Vin]

Men - use male toilets
Women - use female toilets

Simple as that really.

 

[RandyWanger]

I haven't seen democrats this mad since the republicans freed their slaves

 

[Bodian]

Musk exercising his power already

 

[A1X]

Musk exercising his power already

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I genuinely would not be surprised if Musk, who we know has been talking to Putin a lot, is Trump’s handler. As a private citizen his communications are not monitored so he can give Uncle Vlad the full lowdown of everything Donnie does.