[Politics] The 2024 US Election - *MATCH DAY*

[Triggaaar]

As above, forcing Putin in to an unwinnable corner, in my opinion, would spell doom for us.

There has to be another alternative eventually.

What is the alternative? He either loses, or he wins. If you don't want him to lose, then you want him to win.

 

[StonehamPark]

What is the alternative? He either loses, or he wins.

I think most rational people want Putin to ‘lose’. If that means the war stops and there’s no expanded or worsened conflict.

Backing him into an un-winnable corner is something else.

It’s not as simple as ‘win vs lose’.

If you don't want him to lose, then you want him to win.

Me, specifically? Or people in general?
That’s quite the bizarre statement to post during this conversation.

 

[Zeberdi]

"By the end of January 2025, the continent's most important partner, the United States, could be led by former President Donald Trump, who has said that he would encourage Russia to do 'whatever the hell it wanted' to European countries that did not do what he wanted: spend more on defence," they wrote in a piece for Foreign Policy magazine."

That is not what Trump said, he said when asked what would the US do if European countries don't pay their way he said I hope Russia invades them which is a Trumpian joke/middle finger.

Really? You keep doing this.

But I have a video

 

[Triggaaar]

I think most rational people want Putin to ‘lose’. If that means the war stops and there’s no expanded or worsened conflict.

Backing him into an un-winnable corner is something else.

It’s not as simple as ‘win vs lose’.

Me, specifically? Or people in general?
That’s quite the bizarre statement to post during this conversation.

I'm asking you specifically. How do you hope it will end?

 

[Triggaaar]

Really? You keep doing this.

But I have a video

Owned.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that this is one of those posts he's just too busy to reply to

 

[Weststander]

I think most rational people want Putin to ‘lose’. If that means the war stops and there’s no expanded or worsened conflict.

Backing him into an un-winnable corner is something else.

It’s not as simple as ‘win vs lose’.

Me, specifically? Or people in general?
That’s quite the bizarre statement to post during this conversation.

Do you admire Trump and Putin, but simply can’t bring yourself to reveal that to this forum?

 

[StonehamPark]

I'm asking you specifically. How do you hope it will end?

I referenced on an earlier post today (#5,346) that my biggest anxiety and concern was further global instability.
I wish it had already ended, and my (continued) hope, is for a brave and bold Russian military leader puts a bullet in the back of Putins head - and more importantly, whoever then assumes power, wants a peaceful and prosperous Russia, with the immediate retreat of Ukraine as their first action.
That's my hope.

Do you admire Trump and Putin, but simply can’t bring yourself to reveal that to this forum?

I really want to know how you came to that conclusion. Genuinely.
I believe the vast majority of my posts written within this thread are fairly eloquently clear, with multiple posts having featured firm disclaimers stating my non-support of Trump, as well as the calling out of his words/actions - as well as that of the Democratic party.

I am genuinely perplexed - and really implore you to explain to me how you came to that totally illogical conclusion based on what I've written.
Because frankly, I've been a fan of yours for years on NSC, nodding along at home as I've read your posts over the years, but that may be the most illogical and unintelligent post I've seen directed at me since I joined this forum, and it's quite disappointing.

The below is also interesting - and even though we don't at all get along, I assumed he'd know far better. Another shame.

 

[Triggaaar]

I referenced on an earlier post today (#5,346) that my biggest anxiety and concern was further global instability.
I wish it had already ended, and my (continued) hope, is for a brave and bold Russian military leader puts a bullet in the back of Putins head - and more importantly, whoever then assumes power, wants a peaceful and prosperous Russia, with the immediate retreat of Ukraine as their first action.
That's my hope.

That would be nice.

Would a military leader do that if Putin were winning though? I'm guessing not.

I do understand that a Putin who realises he's going to lose is a concerning prospect, but the alternative is for him to win. I do think it's as simple as win vs lose. I can't see a middle ground in this conflict. I can't see Putin saying 'Shit Zelenskyy, you put up a bloody good fight, fair play, let's call it a draw', and Zelenskyy replying with 'Ah you little bugger, had us going for a while there'. Any 'let's keep what we've got' peace would be temporary while Putin arms to get more.

 

[StonehamPark]

That would be nice.

Would a military leader do that if Putin were winning though? I'm guessing not.

It'd entirely depend on the person performing the action. There's been centuries of coups, executions and assassinations of leaders to draw experiences from.
Most recently, Yevgeny Prigozhin led a 'mutiny' against Russia/Putin and had a decently sized army march back into Russia - at a time when Russia was 'winning'. Though he (insanely) naively negotiated for peace with Putin, and then very strangely died in a plane crash thereafter. A very silly decision.

So yes, I do believe there may be others who would do (or would consider) similar, and VERY much hopefully more sane and rational people than Yevgeny Prigozhin. And the sooner the better.

I do understand that a Putin who realises he's going to lose is a concerning prospect, but the alternative is for him to win. I do think it's as simple as win vs lose. I can't see a middle ground in this conflict.

I'm not really advocating for a middle ground in this situation, I've been advocating for not backing Putin into an unwinnable corner, because that's when the big red button starts to become much more attractive - my worst fear of all.
That's why a coup or assassination is preferable, resulting in a 'transition' of power to a more peaceful and workable government.

 

[Seagull58]

 

[StonehamPark]

You have been making poorly disguised swipes at me for weeks on this thread

and I have basically ignored you but taking a screen shot of me reacting to somebody else’s post and trying to get in a dig about that too is a little obsessive isn’t it?

The sole line of text in the post you liked read; "Do you admire Trump and Putin, but simply can’t bring yourself to reveal that to this forum?"
You should perfectly well know that's never been my stance. I am clear in what I write.

If we ‘don’t get along’, it is because you got very snipey and shouty when I called out your ambiguity towards Trump and you started making the argument personal.

No, if I recall, on two occassions, you called me a "fu**ing" something or other. Posts which have since been edited or deleted by you.
That's when I determined that there's no conversation to be had with a person who can't affectively communicate without personal insults and swearing. I've mostly tried to be clear and eloquent in my posts as I have nuanced views and opinions. I'm not entrenched, and there's a hell of a lot of subjectivity and nuance in the world. It's not Good Vs Evil in every single situation in life.

If I recall correctly, you said you were on the fence (at the time) and had made some pretty damning comments about Harris which I thought were rather offensive

Feel free to post/quote them, I don't recall an attempt at being offensive towards Kamala Harris.
Though I specifically recall admirning her perfomance during her first rally after her nomination and making that clearly known in this thread.

which is why I asked you if you supported Trump and why I gave @Westander a thumbs up for asking the same question -

Where/when did you ask that? And what was my response to you?

it is perfectly reasonable in politics when someone heavily critiques a Party on one side of the political spectrum or at least doesn’t support it, to question whether they support the opposing side.

As above, please quote me as to my "support of the opposing side".
I'm sure you very well know I have critiqued both sides for various reasons, I've mostly attempted to be very clear.
There's clear BS on both sides. I don't like either candidate, for very different reasons, it's that simple.

Anyway, as you were but leave me out please - just because I have often disagreed with your political POV on this thread, there’s no reason to get personal or prolong some kind of feud ...

That's kind of you to say after posting all of the text preceeding the above.
Back your posts, bring receipts, or say nothing.

 

[Zeberdi]

The sole line of text in the post you liked read; "Do you admire Trump and Putin, but simply can’t bring yourself to reveal that to this forum?"
You should perfectly well know that's never been my stance. I am clear in what I write.


No, if I recall, on two occassions, you called me a "fu**ing" something or other. Posts which have since been edited or deleted by you.
That's when I determined that there's no conversation to be had with a person who can't affectively communicate without personal insults and swearing. I've mostly tried to be clear and eloquent in my posts as I have nuanced views and opinions. I'm not entrenched, and there's a hell of a lot of subjectivity and nuance in the world. It's not Good Vs Evil in every single situation in life.


Feel free to post/quote them, I don't recall an attempt at being offensive towards Kamala Harris.
Though I specifically recall admirning her perfomance during her first rally after her nomination and making that clearly known in this thread.


Where/when did you ask that? And what was my response to you?


As above, please quote me as to my "support of the opposing side".
I'm sure you very well know I have critiqued both sides for various reasons, I've mostly attempted to be very clear.
There's clear BS on both sides. I don't like either candidate, for very different reasons, it's that simple.


That's kind of you to say after posting all of the text preceeding the above.
Back your posts, bring receipts, or say nothing.

TL;DR

(I think most people on this forum will testify that I don’t resort to personal insults and swearing at people when we have differing POVs and communicate my own POVs intelligently and very effectively without such behaviour )

 

[StonehamPark]

TL;DR

(I think most people on this forum will testify that I don’t resort to personal insults and swearing at people when we have differing POVs and communicate my own POVs intelligently and very effectively without such behaviour )

Gaslighting, and an outright liar then.
Lower than I initially thought.

Good luck to you.

 

[GT49er]

Oh. ffs! Another thread derailed!

 

[Zeberdi]

Oh. ffs! Another thread derailed!

Yep, apologies GT49er - I need to try harder not to react - someone baiting an argument because I liked someone else’s post is a new one for me. Really childish, puerile and totally unnecessary of me to engage with it, so apologies.
The last thing I want to do is derail my own thread

 

[AZ Gull]

TL;DR

(I think most people on this forum will testify that I don’t resort to personal insults and swearing at people when we have differing POVs and communicate my own POVs intelligently and very effectively without such behaviour )

@Zeberdi responding "TL;DR" to someone else's post is absolutely fantastic, and what NSC is all about

 

[peterward]

This is a very dangerous line of thought imo, and I hope (and believe) that world leaders would not take this approach.


As above, forcing Putin in to an unwinnable corner, in my opinion, would spell doom for us.

There has to be another alternative eventually. However, prolonging the war is greatly in the US' financial interests.


That's not exactly what happened during his first term (global isolation).
All that said, what do you believe Kamala would do differently, to the past 3.5 years?

Not dangerous at all, you think appeasement is the answer to a genocidal fascists insatiable appetite?

With greatest respect, whats really dangerous imho is "escalation management" people who voice similar opinions like yours and who offer no solutions at all, to a genocidal fascist who is all in and won't stop until he is either stopped or wins and global stability accelerates not recedes.

The price to stop Putin will keep going up and he's not going to stop, nor is Ukraine going to hand over 5m of its citizens, its territory or just airbrush out the atrocities for your comfort.

Putin isn't going to nuke anyone, he's absolutely terrified of death and those around him including wealthy oligarchs are criminals who love luxury, they are not jihadists. Every bluff had been called and we must go all in to see his defeat.

He is far more likely to withdraw, beg for mercy or be deposed than nuke and the price of not defeating him as he supplies Iran with nuclear technology, makes global nuclear risks higher than his defeat.

He is a crazy genocidal fascist who went nuts in lockdown and has invaded another country, you cannot wish it away.

 

[Weststander]

 

[StonehamPark]

Not dangerous at all, you think appeasement is the answer to a genocidal fascists insatiable appetite?

With greatest respect, whats really dangerous imho is "escalation management" people who voice similar opinions like yours and who offer no solutions at all, to a genocidal fascist who is all in and won't stop until he is either stopped or wins and global stability accelerates not recedes.

The price to stop Putin will keep going up and he's not going to stop, nor is Ukraine going to hand over 5m of its citizens, its territory or just airbrush out the atrocities for your comfort.

Putin isn't going to nuke anyone, he's absolutely terrified of death and those around him including wealthy oligarchs are criminals who love luxury, they are not jihadists. Every bluff had been called and we must go all in to see his defeat.

He is far more likely to withdraw, beg for mercy or be deposed than nuke and the price of not defeating him as he supplies Iran with nuclear technology, makes global nuclear risks higher than his defeat.

He is a crazy genocidal fascist who went nuts in lockdown and has invaded another country, you cannot wish it away.

I generally don’t disagree with any of the above, a decent level headed post and opinion.

I don’t have a good solution or any good ideas that wouldn’t potentially escalate things to a level that we can’t come back from.

But I ask, what are your solutions and/or ideas? - Genuinely.

I’m pretty sure we all want the same end result - but how to get there?

 

[peterward]

I generally don’t disagree with any of the above, a decent level headed post and opinion.

I don’t have a good solution or any good ideas that wouldn’t potentially escalate things to a level that we can’t come back from.

But I ask, what are your solutions and/or ideas? - Genuinely.

I’m pretty sure we all want the same end result - but how to get there?

The same ideas that the head of MI6 and CIA called for today, that many political leaders call for in Eastern Europe and the majority of pro Ukrainians who mirror what Ukraine ask for.

Give Ukraine everything it needs in conventional military technology to hit at the airbase in Russia from where missiles are launched, to hit Russian energy infrastructure in the same way Russia, as the agressor hits Ukrainian.

To allow Ukraine to shoot back at the Archer and not be banned from doing so and only allowed to defend against his never ending arrows.

To give the victim the same licence and capability the aggressor enjoys and to stop prioritising Russian airbase over Ukrainain civilians being bombed in the homes. I'm confident Ukraine won't just bomb civillians in Russia, but bringing the war to Russia and hitting the places from where Russia launches its illegal war changes the domestic calculations for Putin inside Russia.

Jake Sullivan is the problem now, Trump would be disastrous, can only hope Harris will be better.

This in a nutshell.