[Football] That Crystal Palace banner

[andy1980]

So a little bit like ignoring what’s happening to some people, including being tortured and killed, because others are enriched by, or better off because of the same people. So a bit like, say, 1930s Germany yes? Because that ended well…

If people took notice of Hitler and dealt with the issues he was addressing then maybe the war wouldn't have happened. Ignoring him and acting like he was a nobody led to the war. Surely sitting down with the Arabs and saying we believe you are wrong for x y z is the best way to deal with him. The trouble is everyone wants to be a hero but never wants to deal with the issues.

Why is no one asking what influences (if any) they have on our government for them to be talking to the Premier League over the Newcastle takeover.

 

[The Clamp]

If people took notice of Hitler and dealt with the issues he was addressing then maybe the war wouldn't have happened. Ignoring him and acting like he was a nobody led to the war. Surely sitting down with the Arabs and saying we believe you are wrong for x y z is the best way to deal with him. The trouble is everyone wants to be a hero but never wants to deal with the issues.

Why is no one asking what influences (if any) they have on our government for them to be talking to the Premier League over the Newcastle takeover.

Read the links I posted a few pages back. I and others are very much asking about the influence they have over our finances and politics and that extends to top flight sports interests.

 

[andy1980]

Well, that depends what ethics you are applying. Utilitarianism is totalitarian so you would always choose the approach that benefits the most people, no matter the cost to the minority.

However, people constantly change their ethical approach to make certain scenarios more palatable.

That aside, my ethics of conscience say we should not be trading with the the Saudi’s. Applying pragmatism, my opinion is that we need to and therefore cannot avoid it.

That doesn’t really answer your question I don’t think. Sorry!

Thank-you. I think better people than me have problems understanding that stuff. So I will stick with good people do bad things and evil people can do good things and wait and see if the people of Newcastle benefit from this.

 

[Baldseagull]

doesn't Ethics say you should do the biggest good for the most amount of people. So when are you going to Kill him then? What if you killed him and the person who took over from him was more tyrannical than him, and he kills and invades more counties surely the Ethical thing to do is keep the original person in charge. I don't think Ethics is simple.

I am a bit bemused, I am talking about not sitting back and allowing sportswashing to go ahead unopposed, and it would be great if it actually backfired. I was not suggesting assassinations?

Ethically, I wouldn't want my club involved in any way with a regime that executes people it has found guilty of terrorism for peaceful protests, assassinates dissident journalists, bombs civilian populations in Yemen, imprisons people for campaigning for womens rights, uses torture to extract confessions etc.
I don't see building a community centre in Gateshead and buying a better squad makes it ok to ignore all that, and start waving Saudi flags, I am pretty disappointed in the Geordies.

 

[andy1980]

I am a bit bemused, I am talking about not sitting back and allowing sportswashing to go ahead unopposed, and it would be great if it actually backfired. I was not suggesting assassinations?

Ethically, I wouldn't want my club involved in any way with a regime that executes people it has found guilty of terrorism for peaceful protests, assassinates dissident journalists, bombs civilian populations in Yemen, imprisons people for campaigning for womens rights, uses torture to extract confessions etc.
I don't see building a community centre in Gateshead and buying a better squad makes it ok to ignore all that, and start waving Saudi flags, I am pretty disappointed in the Geordies.

What do you mean by Ethically? As I said I thought Ethics was doing the most good for the most amount of people. That is what I thought it was.

 

[Dave the OAP]

You read them quick.
Best just leave it. I’m not in the mood for ignorance or a binfest and I don’t have the energy to keep educating you.
Have a smashing afternoon.

He is a dick mate…only one of two I have on ignore

 

[SAC]

OK, one banner isn't going to change anything but it's generated a lot of publicity which has to be a good thing.

Lets hope the fans of all clubs follow suit, fan power can work.

 

[Baldseagull]

What do you mean by Ethically? As I said I thought Ethics was doing the most good for the most amount of people. That is what I thought it was.

Maybe I have it wrong, but to me, ethics is morality, I prefer the word ethical over moral, as moral implies religious or dogmatic rules of right and wrong, whereas ethical implies to me that a consideration of what is right or wrong has taken place.

I think what you are describing is utilitarianism, where any decision made should be the most beneficial to the most people. Ethical decisions just need to be justified as right rather than wrong. The most ethical decision could be that which is most beneficial to the most people, but there will be examples where what would deliver the greatest good to the greatest number is unethical.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Neither helped by bedsit warriors.

They get a lot of help from apologetics like you however. "The Saudis are evil, but..."

I never said that. You getting out of line now...

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But if the aim is sportswashing, i.e. trying to create a softer image through involvement in sport, maybe their attempts can be reversed and the involvement in NUFC serves to highlight their abuses. If other piece of shit financiers see that buying a PL club no longer brings you any respectability, but could turn the spotlight on some of your less savoury practices, maybe they start changing those practices rather than just spending cash on PR and football clubs.

I understand the imperative. Buy a club. Make them great. Be the good guys.

But then what?

Can you turn a blind eye to repression, torture, summary execution, dismemberment, abuse of women and the support of islamic terrorism? Just because someone owns a club?

Sure, sure, we simply love you now you own Newcastle. Like we all loved Captain Bob when he bought Oxford. And like we all loved Owen Oyston when he took Blackpool into the EPL (or his son did - he was probably in jail for rape by then).

And we have always sold the Saudis arms. Always will. They don't need to own Newcastle to facilitate that.

So what's it all about? I really don't get it.

I am beginning to feel that sportswashing is fake news. It is more akin to drawing attention to the wider public your shortcomings. Sportsdirtying more like.

 

[andy1980]

Maybe I have it wrong, but to me, ethics is morality, I prefer the word ethical over moral, as moral implies religious or dogmatic rules of right and wrong, whereas ethical implies to me that a consideration of what is right or wrong has taken place.

I think what you are describing is utilitarianism, where any decision made should be the most beneficial to the most people. Ethical decisions just need to be justified as right rather than wrong. The most ethical decision could be that which is most beneficial to the most people, but there will be examples where what would deliver the greatest good to the greatest number is unethical.

Okay. I don't think anyone would choose to have the Arabs as their owners. That doesn't mean it is wrong. I get all this sports washing stuff that people talk about (never heard the phrase before this though) If people talk about them in terms of what they are doing at Newcastle it means they are seen less for what they are doing outside of football, although the two actions are connected by their motives (they most likely wouldn't be buying a football club if it didn't overshadow their evil actions) the two actions outcomes are not connected. So they are still doing evil things, but in terms of what they do with Newcastle could be good. There is a saying everyone says that two wrongs don't make a right, but a big wrong and a little right doesn't make all wrong.

I wouldn't want to shake their hands and come face to face with them, and I don't envy anyone who has to, but the world is so full of hatred and badness that if there is just a little good that comes from this then it shouldn't be ignored. As long as they follow our ways of life then until time comes for them to pay for their actions then goodness at Newcastle should be seen as goodness and the bad things they do outside of football should be seen as bad.

I am more concerned about any influence they have over our government. We should be trying to influence them not the other way around.

 

[Dr Q]

Never thought I'd ever say it, but well done the Palace fans!!

 

[The Clamp]

He is a dick mate…only one of two I have on ignore

Ah, I hadn't really noticed him before. Noted. Thanks.

 

[Del Fenner]

And as for the accusation that this is just opportunism against a rival for relegation:

https://twitter.com/se25jg/status/1451963218671423489

 

[faoileán]

I think what a lot of people are missing is that the banner is mainly to draw attention to the FA's lip-service to fit and proper tests for club owners. In an age where fans are really just considered customers I give full credit to Palace for this statement...

 

[Sheebo]

And as for the accusation that this is just opportunism against a rival for relegation:

https://twitter.com/se25jg/status/1451963218671423489

Is it true Palace have Saudi money in the club via a Director though?

Those banners are all correct (although look a bit shit) but the fact that supporters group have been very homophobic etc and accuse a totally innocent man of being a rapist etc means they lose all value for me. They’re just attention seekers and most don’t even know what the banners even mean - just want some ‘fame’.

 

[Dougie]

Is it true Palace have Saudi money in the club via a Director though?

Those banners are all correct (although look a bit shit) but the fact that supporters group have been very homophobic etc and accuse a totally innocent man of being a rapist etc means they lose all value for me. They’re just attention seekers and most don’t even know what the banners even mean - just want some ‘fame’.

Haven’t you got anything better to do than troll and derail

 

[faoileán]

Is it true Palace have Saudi money in the club via a Director though?

Those banners are all correct (although look a bit shit) but the fact that supporters group have been very homophobic etc and accuse a totally innocent man of being a rapist etc means they lose all value for me. They’re just attention seekers and most don’t even know what the banners even mean - just want some ‘fame’.

Sorry, I disagree. All fans know these days that if you put a foot wrong in the eyes of the club you face a ban, so producing a hard-hitting banner like that takes some guts. I want to see football fans be more militant and not just accept the bulls**t that we have to put up with from clubs and the FA and the Premier League who only see us as a revenue stream. I wish the hell clubs in this country were run like in Germany...

 

[Gazwag]

Haven’t you got anything better to do than troll and derail

It's okay England will be playing again soon and he'll be abusing Brighton fans again rather than Palace ones

 

[Mackenzie]

Sorry, I disagree. All fans know these days that if you put a foot wrong in the eyes of the club you face a ban, so producing a hard-hitting banner like that takes some guts. I want to see football fans be more militant and not just accept the bulls**t that we have to put up with from clubs and the FA and the Premier League who only see us as a revenue stream. I wish the hell clubs in this country were run like in Germany...

Face a ban?

No chance at that club, Parish let’s them do whatever they want.