Thank GOD for Islam.

[CleckSeagullJunior]

It wasn't a little joke film though was it, it was a carefully made attempt at religious incitement that worked as it was designed to do.

Ok it was a offensive movie but it wasn't even that bad I mean it was a little crappy badly made movie that no one except them took seriously.

 

[The Spanish]

Yet that IS exactly my point..... not ALL Muslims are the same and until we can honestly say we know the difference we should be very careful of labelling them and trying to understadn their intentions and motivations. This thread paintbrushes the issue.

you make some good points mate what people dont understand is comparing muslims especially in the urban parts of your world with some in saudi is like comparing weddings and funeral and midnight mass going christians in the south of england with fundamentalists in the US, to a certain extent. we have to be very careful on this, it can be argued that the loss of moderate turkish/ottoman influence in the muslim world has created this in certain places. i understand its a broad church, if thats not an inappropriate choice of words.

 

[Dandyman]

The difference being that the uvf/ira werent killing people in the name of their religion , you're being naive or disingenuous to suggest this is the case.

"For God and for Ulster" ? Most Islamists are not killing because of some obscure theological issue either. Most of the issues in the Middle-East/Indian sub-continent etc are political/economic. I accept that Northern Ireland was not a debate about transubstantiation but anyone who thinks Hamas or the Taliban are not political organisations (however repellent) is kidding themselves.

 

[abc]

It's very simple to disassociate faith from religion but the majority would probably accept the latter as being the collective form of the former. Also, what exactly does faith do for you. The word suggests trusting in something. Do you trust your god to look after you because there are plenty of people that have had faith and have died painfully, or seen loved ones die or suffer. Does it come down to accepting anything he does to you during life because you want to believe he will somehow look after you when you have died? I'll say it again, if there is a power that can control events then why do so many innocent people suffer.

Finally, do you ever wonder whether your life would be different if you had no faith and whether in fact you actually need it? Would you suddenly treat others as scum, steal, lie etc? I suspect not.[/QUOTE]

It's NOT simple to dissassociate Faith from Religion as this whole thread demonstrates. To me, and this is my personal view of course, Religion is not about Faith but about politics and self interest. Religion has proved throughout history to be a negative force and is something we could all do without.

I don't have the answer to your questions about Faith, I'm not sure anyone does. Perhaps that is why it's Faith. But I would never even consider imposing my Faith on someone else or criticising someone who has no faith. It's personal to me and it harms no one. If I had to nail down some kind of response to your questions (which I ask as often as you I'm sure) is that God gives man the tools and it is up to us what we do with them. If we choose to hate, fight etc then it's our decision and we take the consequences. But why he should allow an innocent child to die - I don't have the answer. However I do feel 'religion' is the ultimate corruption of the message that God gave us. Of course if you have no faith then this is irrelevant to you. But it is relevant to the people who preach hate in the name of religion.

Of course (I hope!) I would not treat as others as scum etc if I had no faith. That's absurd and is, as you imply, not linked to whether someone has a faith or not. Faith does not make you a better or worse person nor does a lack faith. What I am trying to say is that belief/faith in a God isn't a bad thing - unless it is corrupted. That is where 'religion' comes in.

 

[looney]

Sorry Looney it doesnt. Im a Muslim and I dont see it in the quran. Jihad has many maanings and it certainly doesnt mean going to war or killing people.... that is only one definition and definately not mine

as for fatwas... fatwas are made by men... do you know how many dşifferent sects there are in islam.. almost as many as in christianity and any holy man in any of the sects can publish a fatwa..... one of them... if you may remember sentences Salman Rushdie to death... an act that horrifiedd nearly 3/4 of the world's muslims because it was done by an Iranian shia who has no authority over any non-shias.

So not so simple as you think.

Well must of been a different Koran? As you say its about inturpretation, and its very easy to read it that way. I went to see an Imams talk about Jihad. It was ok but near the knuckle, plenty of caveats about only attacking an enemy openly from outside a country and not targeting women and children etc etc. It was still sanctifying violence killing and war though in a way no other religion does.

I dont doubt there is a peacefull interpretation of islam, Sufis are proof of that. The problem is its a minority view and not one the Saudis are funding globally in Islamic education centres(Wahibism) for example. It is also an interpretation where you would have to turn a blind eye to a lot of quotes and History, a hell of a lot of blin eyes.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Seems to me we are re-arranging the village to suit the village idiot, should it not be the other way round?

 

[looney]

Yet that IS exactly my point..... not ALL Muslims are the same and until we can honestly say we know the difference we should be very careful of labelling them and trying to understadn their intentions and motivations. This thread paintbrushes the issue.

Not quite. I tend to agree with the late Christopher Hitchens. He said the problem for the UK is the were the US let in predominatly Middle Class and Well educated Iranians who are industrious and assimilate fairly well to begin with. The UK has let in predominatly third world, poorly educated muslims from countries with a more fundimentalist vent like Pakistan and Bangladesh. Saying the Muslims are a diverse lot is fair enough, the problem we have is we have let in to many of the wrong sort who in their ghettos wont/cant assimilate. This is a recipe for trouble.

 

[BadFish]

You may be right but actually that misses my point. Faith is personal between you and your God. ALL of the Faiths (Christianity, Muslim, Hindi et al) have peace and love as their centre point. So Faith is at worst harmless and best a positive.

However Religion is the corruption of Faith by people who lose sight of Love and twist Faith into the many negative aspects of human emotion and thought or actually hijack faith and use it for their own political ends.

Faith hurts no one and is not a threat. Religion is not the same thing and throughout history people have used Religion to justify oppression and atrocities. Religion is about Humans and their twisted objectives and bigotries. Faith is simply about, well, Faith.

It's very simple to disassociate faith from religion but the majority would probably accept the latter as being the collective form of the former. Also, what exactly does faith do for you. The word suggests trusting in something. Do you trust your god to look after you because there are plenty of people that have had faith and have died painfully, or seen loved ones die or suffer. Does it come down to accepting anything he does to you during life because you want to believe he will somehow look after you when you have died? I'll say it again, if there is a power that can control events then why do so many innocent people suffer.

Finally, do you ever wonder whether your life would be different if you had no faith and whether in fact you actually need it? Would you suddenly treat others as scum, steal, lie etc? I suspect not.[/QUOTE]

a very eloquent post, truth well put.

 

[abc]

It's very simple to disassociate faith from religion but the majority would probably accept the latter as being the collective form of the former. Also, what exactly does faith do for you. The word suggests trusting in something. Do you trust your god to look after you because there are plenty of people that have had faith and have died painfully, or seen loved ones die or suffer. Does it come down to accepting anything he does to you during life because you want to believe he will somehow look after you when you have died? I'll say it again, if there is a power that can control events then why do so many innocent people suffer.

Finally, do you ever wonder whether your life would be different if you had no faith and whether in fact you actually need it? Would you suddenly treat others as scum, steal, lie etc? I suspect not.

a very eloquent post, truth well put.[/QUOTE]

Badfish, would you mind If I repeated my response to this? Thank you

It's NOT simple to dissassociate Faith from Religion as this whole thread demonstrates. To me, and this is my personal view of course, Religion is not about Faith but about politics and self interest. Religion has proved throughout history to be a negative force and is something we could all do without.

I don't have the answer to your questions about Faith, I'm not sure anyone does. Perhaps that is why it's Faith. But I would never even consider imposing my Faith on someone else or criticising someone who has no faith. It's personal to me and it harms no one. If I had to nail down some kind of response to your questions (which I ask as often as you I'm sure) is that God gives man the tools and it is up to us what we do with them. If we choose to hate, fight etc then it's our decision and we take the consequences. But why he should allow an innocent child to die - I don't have the answer. However I do feel 'religion' is the ultimate corruption of the message that God gave us. Of course if you have no faith then this is irrelevant to you. But it is relevant to the people who preach hate in the name of religion.

Of course (I hope!) I would not treat as others as scum etc if I had no faith. That's absurd and is, as you imply, not linked to whether someone has a faith or not. Faith does not make you a better or worse person nor does a lack faith. What I am trying to say is that belief/faith in a God isn't a bad thing - unless it is corrupted. That is where 'religion' comes in.

 

[k2bluesky]

How thick are all these people who believe a GOD would single out any specific group on the planet, by colour, race or otherwise or speak to one man, so he can write a book of instructions on how to live - A God would be of the whole universe and highly unlikely to target any 'groups' as special, he would give us a planet and see what we make of it, undeniably religious wars have helped f*** up the place - If there is a GOD, accept he will talk to you individually, books written by other men proclaiming to representing him, are probably not telling the truth, One God, One planet.

 

[drew]

How thick are all these people who believe a GOD would single out any specific group on the planet, by colour, race or otherwise or speak to one man, so he can write a book of instructions on how to live - A God would be of the whole universe and highly unlikely to target any 'groups' as special, he would give us a planet and see what we make of it, undeniably religious wars have helped f*** up the place - If there is a GOD, accept he will talk to you individually, books written by other men proclaiming to representing him, are probably not telling the truth, One God, One planet.

Or, no god and our planet.

 

[matthew]

All f***ing religion is a joke how people still believe in these things is beyond me.

It's one of the reasons for the fundamental illusion that humans aren't part of nature so can use the environment as they want and have as many kids as they want. It will all come back to haunt us.

As Al Gore once said "What I hear in my dreams is generations in the future screaming back to us in time, saying 'what are you doing, don't you see' We are at this critical point in time where we've evolved to be the leaders of our biological community and we are misleading. We are causing the devastation to the very foundation of the life system that has given us birth and we are ultimately committing suicide."

Also if a religion is so fragile as to be made mock of my a low budget video isn't that a sign there are big floors in its beliefs

 

[Camicus]

Bradford has a protest over that film on friday they say thousands are turning up. FFS I wish they would get a grip I dont know why its always Bradford

 

[red star portslade]

Bradford has a protest over that film on friday they say thousands are turning up. FFS I wish they would get a grip I dont know why its always Bradford

Errr....... Because lot's of Muslims live in Bradford.

 

[Camicus]

Errr....... Because lot's of Muslims live in Bradford.

Thanks for that living here I hadnt noticed...... Guess thats why its ok to spit on poppy sellers beat up charity workers wearing captain america suits force halal meat on people via takeaways (you cannot get non halal) and so on and so on. Just once it would be nice if they took the oppertunity not to be a bunch of twats getting there knickers in a knot.

 

[One Love]

Also if a religion is so fragile as to be made mock of my a low budget video isn't that a sign there are big floors in its beliefs

Are you serious?

 

[1066gull]

People burning us flags have got the wrong idea

They should be burning US dollars; the true instrument to their oppression

 

[One Love]

An amateur group of Islamic film makers have posted a video on YouTube which mocks Christianity and Jesus Christ.

It is believed to be so offensive that St Peter's Church in Shrewsbury have postponed their coffee morning until next Wednesday and Dorothy Green from Margate has written in to "Points of View".

When will the madness end?

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

"I call upon these countries and say: Yes, freedom of expression is there, but you should make laws regarding people insulting our Prophet. And if you don't, then the future will be extremely dangerous."
you can have freedom of expression, but if you make fun of our imaginary god, it's war.

But it's not even their god, is it? It's just his prophet...

 

[BadFish]

But it's not even their god, is it? It's just his prophet...

Same god as the others, its all a bit silly isn't it?