Term time Dad loses in the Supreme Court

[Machiavelli]

I'm an ex teacher, so when weighing in I am slightly biased, but I believe the decision to be 100% correct.

Yes, there is an argument that children need experiences out of the classroom (although a trip to Florida isn't exactly educational), but this ruling isn't stopping people taking their children out, it is just asking them to pay a fine (and a tiny one at that) for the right to have a cheaper holiday. This seems fair to me.

In regards to whether taking your children out of school during term time has a negative effect on thei education, then the answer is emphatically yes, for 99% of students. The reason for this is that most students simply don't have the drive or wherewithal to catch up on their missed work. This often has many knock on effects down the line in terms of grades and progress.

However, the biggest reason why it's the correct decision is actually a legal rule. It would open the floodgates to parents to take their children out of school on a whim, with no limit to when or how often children could be taken from school without repercussion. It is often bad enough if one child misses a week or two but if you suddenly have 4, 5 or 6 doing it, then the added workload on a teacher, plus the increased stress on the pupils, added to the worsening behaviour as children suffer from increased levels of confusion, would simply not be manageable in most classroom situations, particularly as resources at most schools are already stretched to breaking point (and only getting worse!).

This.

 

[Murray 17]

Mate, anyone that still thinks an inset day is a day off for teachers is a bit dim to be honest. I will have to remind anyone that works in business that any meetings they have are days off and should be carried out in their own personal holidays.

Yes, couldn't agree more. I've explained the situation to so many people - what's worrying is that I've had to explain it to some people more than once!

 

[Machiavelli]

No wonder kids are useless at Maths if this is the kind of stats we are teaching them. 6 weeks in the summer (30 working days), 2 weeks at Easter (8 excluding bank holidays) and Christmas (7) plus 3 half terms (14) is nearer 60 than 40 accepting that you may be over the summer to give out A-level results or the like depending on what age you are teaching. One of my mates is a teacher and had a training day on Cheltenham Gold cup day where he appeared for the 1st race. I've no doubt teachers work hard but spare us the 40 days holiday and working till midnight checking spelling gubbins. Similarly, If you also believe an office job is 9-5 with a 2 hour lunch and luzzing paper aeroplanes in the afternoons - That was the 1980's. Most Corporate companies are working on tight margins which means those of us left here after countless rounds of redundancies are working their tits off.

With regards to this case, there should be an ability to use discretion rather than binary rules. Parents at our school took their kid out of school for one day to go to Lapland. They were fined whilst the rest of the class sat and watched Elf.

So, have I got this right?
-- it's all just a competition to work harder and longer (I won't throw in for less pay, worse conditions, more insecure contracts, etc)
There is an alternative: we could get together and back a political party that advocated the reduction of working hours, provided better conditions, and secure contracts. This has happened in the past, but we're light years away from it happening in the future.

 

[Bold Seagull]

~60 average? really? that means many thousands doing 70-80 to offset the thousands doing 40-50, or maybe those statistics are flawed.

Or people don't like their stereotype shown to be flawed?

 

[happypig]

Lot of teachers on here for a school day....

 

[father_and_son]

No, I did not say that. We have longer holidays but the average working days and work outside of school is much longer than many other jobs. If I compare my job working in an office to teaching for example:

Office job- 9 to 5 with a lunch break, no work outside of those hours. Average 7 hours a day. 25 days holiday a year

Teaching job - 7-6 with a 30 min lunchbreak. Additional duties. Evening marking, planning and preparation. Average 10-12 hours a day. 40 days holiday a year.

If I compare the two jobs then teaching is the far more demanding in terms of man hours over the course of the year. However, we are rewarded with longer holidays which I like so that is fair enough.

If you want an impartial opinion then ask any posters on here that are married to or in a relationship with a teacher to give you an honest answer to the amount of hours they put it.

An office job with a salary commensurate to a teacher's would not be 9-5.

I work from 8 to (at least) 6, I eat at my desk, I do paperwork evenings and weekends as the business requires, and have only recently stopped having to commute to London adding another 3 hours to my working day (I earned a lot more in London though).


This particular case was a terrible example because of the nature of the holiday. It is of huge benefit to a child to experience differing cultures, languages and peoples. Travelling outside of Europe/USA often adds an additional appreciation of how easy we have things here compared to the global average.
Some parents do have the child's best interests at heart when they chose to take holidays in term time.


Until lat year we had one at Brighton College and one at Hove Park and there were very few weeks during the year when they were both off school. Normally this was 1 week at Easter, 10 days at Christmas and 3/4 weeks in the summer. This made anything but the most basic family holidays almost unaffordable for us.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I'm an ex teacher, so when weighing in I am slightly biased, but I believe the decision to be 100% correct.

Yes, there is an argument that children need experiences out of the classroom (although a trip to Florida isn't exactly educational), but this ruling isn't stopping people taking their children out, it is just asking them to pay a fine (and a tiny one at that) for the right to have a cheaper holiday. This seems fair to me.

In regards to whether taking your children out of school during term time has a negative effect on thei education, then the answer is emphatically yes, for 99% of students. The reason for this is that most students simply don't have the drive or wherewithal to catch up on their missed work. This often has many knock on effects down the line in terms of grades and progress.

However, the biggest reason why it's the correct decision is actually a legal rule. It would open the floodgates to parents to take their children out of school on a whim, with no limit to when or how often children could be taken from school without repercussion. It is often bad enough if one child misses a week or two but if you suddenly have 4, 5 or 6 doing it, then the added workload on a teacher, plus the increased stress on the pupils, added to the worsening behaviour as children suffer from increased levels of confusion, would simply not be manageable in most classroom situations, particularly as resources at most schools are already stretched to breaking point (and only getting worse!).

in you opinion as an ex-schools teacher ( there are a lot of teh usual suspects spouting on here) do you believe that a 4 year old in reception that is taken out of school for 1 week will ruin their chances of going to University or gaining good educational qualifications? I say that as the ex inspector of schools head on Breakfast time suggested that by taking children out of school, whatever their age will lead them to have a shite life

 

[Triggaaar]

1. How do you know what hours I did in an office job. It was 9-5 with a 40 minute lunch

My mistake, I thought you were talking general professional office jobs, not yours.

The CHILDREN get 12 weeks holiday a year

6 summer, 2 Christmas, 2 Easter, 3 single week half terms = 13. Are you a maths teacher?

 

[beorhthelm]

Mate, anyone that still thinks an inset day is a day off for teachers is a bit dim to be honest. I will have to remind anyone that works in business that any meetings they have are days off and should be carried out in their own personal holidays.

why are you persisting with this flawed analogy, when you know "meetings" is what constitutes work for substantial amount of business, even if they are often frivolous and unproductive. also if you believe that teachers are only having 40 days holiday when there are 13 weeks (65 days) school holidays, you're only proving the point that they could do the training in the ~20-25 days they are at work but school is closed.

 

[Triggaaar]

Well, clearly the basis of your argument is from a couple of people you know who are teachers. You're hardly in a position to question the validity of a professionally prepared set of statistics.

I just don't buy it, sorry

 

[portlock seagull]

An office job with a salary commensurate to a teacher's would not be 9-5.

I work from 8 to (at least) 6, I eat at my desk, I do paperwork evenings and weekends as the business requires, and have only recently stopped having to commute to London adding another 3 hours to my working day (I earned a lot more in London though).


This particular case was a terrible example because of the nature of the holiday. It is of huge benefit to a child to experience differing cultures, languages and peoples. Travelling outside of Europe/USA often adds an additional appreciation of how easy we have things here compared to the global average.
Some parents do have the child's best interests at heart when they chose to take holidays in term time.


Until lat year we had one at Brighton College and one at Hove Park and there were very few weeks during the year when they were both off school. Normally this was 1 week at Easter, 10 days at Christmas and 3/4 weeks in the summer. This made anything but the most basic family holidays almost unaffordable for us.

Sounds like you were on the treadmill, working long hours in and commuting London to afford school fees etc. Did it ultimately cancel itself out i.e. you never see the kids because you're working so hard to give them 'the best' before you stopped all that and now have a better work-life balance?

 

[Rod Marsh]

I don't know what the fuss is all about. It's purely market forces/Demand which drive the price of holidays up when children are not at school. If you can't afford it, hard luck.

 

[portlock seagull]

in you opinion as an ex-schools teacher ( there are a lot of teh usual suspects spouting on here) do you believe that a 4 year old in reception that is taken out of school for 1 week will ruin their chances of going to University or gaining good educational qualifications? I say that as the ex inspector of schools head on Breakfast time suggested that by taking children out of school, whatever their age will lead them to have a shite life

I don't think anyone would disagree, if pushed and honest, with what you're saying. I think it's more the chaos and slippery slope angle at stake here 'on the whole', we just can't entertain that as a nation. Nor should we. Go to school, sit down and tow the line even if sometimes it sucks. Because life does too, so this is all a lesson in itself ironically isn't it?!

 

[Bold Seagull]

I just don't buy it, sorry

Don't apologise to me, I'm just a school governor, you've obviously a far greater in-depth knowledge than the opinion of teachers, ex-teachers, statistical surveys and the like.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

What annoys me most is that schools shut on a whim and take teaching days away from children when it suits them without any regard to inconvenience to parents. Roles are reversed and parents get fined.

As an example, my kids' school recently had to put two classes in temporary classrooms whilst building works were carried out. Rather than get the teachers to give up two days of their enormous holidays to get the rooms ready, the school shut down entirely for two days. A whole school of parents having to sort out two days childcare. We've got a whole week shutdown in September whilst they move back into the new building. There's then a week in June where there are two inset days and a sports day in one week, plus two days of 'sport' for the remainder of the week. If that isn't an invitation to take your kids out and go on a cheaper holiday when they're learning sod all I don't know what is.

You will probably find buerocracy and health and safety made this decision NOT the Teaching staff, also are you aware of the huge amount of work put in during "enormous " holidays? Or how would you feel if your child's teacher said " sorry I'm off for the next week's because it's cheaper for me to go on holiday". I hate people moaning when they have no idea what teachers do, are you aware there are not enough teachers because NO one wants to do the job anymore? Are you also aware of the blameless arrogant parents who take no responsibility for their kids or their kids behaviour and blame a teacher for it? Or that some parents use school just for free childcare? When you want after school clubs and breakfast clubs for your kids do you know who has to run them, teachers , so they're at work before you and back from work after you. If you want to talk out of your arse you might find it easier if you stand on your hands!!!

 

[Hillian1]

It won't put me off. £240 fine is peanuts. Don't worry. I doubt you'll be holidaying where I am

Why?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't think anyone would disagree, if pushed and honest, with what you're saying. I think it's more the chaos and slippery slope angle at stake here 'on the whole', we just can't entertain that as a nation. Nor should we. Go to school, sit down and tow the line even if sometimes it sucks. Because life does too, so this is all a lesson in itself ironically isn't it?!

That would be good if that's all there was to it. Parents have been fined because they've had a close relative die, had to make funeral arrangements, & take their children out of school for a few days.

It's the inflexibility which is so wrong.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Are you a ****ing idiot? Why are you working the holiday of a teacher based on what the children get?

As for MY office job, I am telling you what the hours were. I spent the majority of the day going for coffee breaks and surfing the internet too.

Tell me your job and let me have a go at telling you what you do all day and how many hours you really do?

Ah Ok. You are marking books on Xmas day. My mistake.

I take it you teach English then? (or ****ing English in your case?)

 

[Geestar]

Sounds like a few on here missed too many days at school....

 

[BensGrandad]

As stated the fine is just a holiday tax because in the case of most families it is cheaper to pay the fine than the increased holiday charges even with 2 or 3 children being included in the holiday and the fines. My youngest son has 3 children ages 8, 6 and 4 so paying the fine for the 8 and 6 year old saves him money on all 3. Even if he got free child places the saving for him and his wife would far exceed the fines.