Syria vote Labour demands evidence

[somerset]

Let's reverse that...

"How would you suggest bringing that government into line with international law - a cruise missile attack with only negative consequences?

No answers as usual, just obstacles, keep it up matey.

 

[pork pie]

The implications of action of any sort are likely to be many and varied, that should not prevent it happening, no pain no gain.

What a pathetic thing to say on such a serious topic. Take a look at yourself.

Look at the potential pain for our forces, and where is the gain for us? Not to mention the huge financial costs.

 

[pork pie]

I’m wondering how many of the people in Syria begging the West to intervene in their country cursed the West when it intervened in Iraq.

Probably most. Together with the rest of the middle east (apart from Isreal and Iran obviously).

 

[somerset]

I’m wondering how many of the people in Syria begging the West to intervene in their country cursed the West when it intervened in Iraq.

Of course they did, its human nature to adopt a NIMBY approach to any crisis,..... and they will again after too ( assuming we take action which is unlikely now).... but anyone who didn't realise that hasn't really got a full grasp of what is happening.

 

[daveinprague]

Somerset, Ive got to ask, how are you so sure that it was the Assad government forces that used this ordinance?
From what ive seen lately, the government forces have been winning this war, and dont see a reason for them to do it to be honest...obviously I could be wrong, but there
seems to be an attitutude of certaininty among people that its the Assad forces that are guilty, with no evidence to back it up...

 

[pork pie]

Somerset, Ive got to ask, how are you so sure that it was the Assad government forces that used this ordinance?

He read it in the Sun?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Let's reverse that...

"How would you suggest bringing that government into line with international law - a cruise missile attack with only negative consequences?

Fair point but how do the world deal with rouge states ( assuming is was the government that carried out the attack ) ? How does the world deter other states from breaking international law ?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Perhaps we shouldn't have believed the hype in September '39,... you may have been happier now living in either a communist or fascist system.... I am sure your grandparents would agree with you.

What a bizarre comparison to make! I am pretty sure that if any country (with or without a questionable regime in charge) starts openly violating international agreements and invading their neighbors, then Britain will still be one of the first to get involved with close to 100% backing of the public.

This is a very murky civil war in which neither side seem to be clearly the "just" cause, and in which the circumstances that would legitimise international involvement are yet to be proven.

 

[somerset]

What a pathetic thing to say on such a serious topic. Take a look at yourself.
.

Pathetic??... let me quote you:

"If you are that bothered, grab your passport and go and join the rebels."
“That lot of leftie scum? No thanks.”
“You really are stupid aren't you!”
“Why worry about it? No Brits were targeted”

 

[somerset]

He read it in the Sun?

You really are an ignorant koont,.....

 

[somerset]

Somerset, Ive got to ask, how are you so sure that it was the Assad government forces that used this ordinance?
From what ive seen lately, the government forces have been winning this war, and dont see a reason for them to do it to be honest...obviously I could be wrong, but there
seems to be an attitutude of certaininty among people that its the Assad forces that are guilty, with no evidence to back it up...

I have said in this thread and others, I don't know one way or another, I am sure of one thing though, 100,000 people have died, the vast majority civilians, it has to stop. So if no action at all is taken, then it will continue. You could take the view that the Assad regime, an unelected minority regime, ruling and controlling along religious lines, should be removed anyway ( I do by the way),.. but that shouldn't stop those that are capable from helping when there is a clear need.

 

[London Irish]

Iraq is all the better for it today though

Iraq has daily atrocities that don't even get reported in our broadsheets any more

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/28/us-iraq-violence-idUSBRE97R07J20130828

 

[KZNSeagull]

Yes - as someone who has been following this uprising & civil war from the start, from independent & international news sources and including bulks of raw footage - I am absolutely positive Assad did not use chemical weapons against his own people - at a point in time where the SAA is in its strongest position since it all began and ahead of a UN inspection, it is just not the logical conclusion.

We know that the rebels possess chemical weapons, and we also know that they have been massacring innocent people from the beginning. There is absolutely no evidence of an aerial dispersement of sarin gas - So why don't the governments face the facts and deal with the Islamist terrorists that are responsible instead?

The simple reason is that it would be too difficult to do so - Western governments want to be seen doing something against a breach of international law, but military actions against the rebels just isn't an option for them. They may as well assist a toppling of yet another Middle Eastern dictator, or at the very least add more fuel to the fire.

If this was the work of the rebels/terrorists, I assume that their objective is to provoke the West into action to help them topple Assad. If the US do not act now, what are they capable of doing next to provoke a response?

 

[CheeseRolls]

First two points I have to disagree with here.

1 Why hate all politicians and claim they are all the same ? - Here they are making decision for the people, whether or not we send our armed forces into combat. That is not a trivial decision and there are people on both sides of the argument who deserve some respect.

2 How can this be described as gesturing party politics ? The vote and debate last night, go to the very core of what does this country stand for, there is nothing petty about the debate or vote at all.

From my own perspective I find I am still sitting on the fence. I share the view that the use of chemical weapons is abhorrent and don't believe this can be allowed to continue. However I need to feel convinced that there is a strategic goal to intervention. This requires some degree of political stability in Syria and an end to civilian casualties. It is unclear at this stage what military intervention will achieve.

Finally there is a massive difference between sounding and acting in a statesman like manner. Cameron has made a massive error in judgement and the result is an inflexible position, which will be difficult to change, especially if the situation in Syria escalates.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

If this was the work of the rebels/terrorists, I assume that their objective is to provoke the West into action to help them topple Assad. If the US do not act now, what are they capable of doing next to provoke a response?

The thought of Al Qaeda having access to chemical weapons doesn't bear thinking about. They will have no scruples about using them.

 

[somerset]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594
At the base level, it really is that simple...... act now. Even the French are onboard, once again proving that the vote last night was a party political sham.

 

[The Large One]

The implications of action of any sort are likely to be many and varied, that should not prevent it happening, no pain no gain.

Wow. I knew you were a bit loose in the head, but I didn't think you were that criminally insane.

Straight from the mindset of George W Bush - "Let's bomb Syria by way of punishment (illegal under international law, BTW) and see how the consequences pan out..."

 

[The Large One]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594
At the base level, it really is that simple...... act now. Even the French are onboard, once again proving that the vote last night was a party political sham.

On that we're agreed.

The government giving their party a whip line to vote in something like this is appalling. Thankfully, 40 rebelled.

 

[daveinprague]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594
At the base level, it really is that simple...... act now. Even the French are onboard, once again proving that the vote last night was a party political sham.

Syria is formally French controlled...they should have been involved from the beginning.

 

[somerset]

Wow. I knew you were a bit loose in the head, but I didn't think you were that criminally insane.

Straight from the mindset of George W Bush - "Let's bomb Syria by way of punishment (illegal under international law, BTW) and see how the consequences pan out..."

I believe you need to broaden your view,... but hey, its all subjective, one mans iconic leader, is anothers liar and political criminal,.... a la Blair.

Note: Bush Jnr and Snr were probably the most heinous political leaders of our time..... bar none.