[Politics] Surprising Allardyce press conference

[maffew]

I would say it's a minority that chooses benefit scrounging lifestyles, more kids than they've ever thought about how to bring them up, etc. - but that, I admit, is anecdotal - I have no actual figures about how many of the poor are deserving poor and how many are undeserving. Unfortunately it is patently true that there are people like #Portlock Seagull's friend, and this tends to colour the view of many towards all the poor.
It's the same dilemma when trying to distinguish between genuine homeless and professional beggars {who do exist, and make a decent living out of it, and go home after a hard days begging to quite reasonable accommodation} - yes, there are some of those too - I don't know what the percentages are though. But it's the same thing though - a minority give the rest a bad name.
And no, I don't know the answers. Wish somebody did!

I'd agree, sterotype, most people on benefits are illiterate teenage mums with kids called Kevin and Sharon and go on Jeremy Kyle. It aint the case IMO (but I neither know any figures TBH)

 

[Sussex Nomad]

You ended up in the workhouse, virtually as a criminal - punished for being poor.

Are we still living in that civilisation? And think before you speak.

 

[Buzzer]

The top 1% earn more money than ever before so paying record amount of tax isn’t really a surprise.

We're all earning more. It's all to do with the proportion of tax paid and the very poorest are paying a record low proportion and the wealthiest a record high.

 

[Buzzer]

Actually it’s not. There are a lot of people who cannot afford children and yet have 3,4,5

It's a very slippery slope when we make comments about poor people having too many children. Firstly. I'm not sure that many poor people actually do have 5 children anymore. The average is still under 2 per family across the country and there's no indication that it's disproportionately higher in less well-off households. Secondly, unless you are super-rich I reckon that purely finance-wise it's never wise to have children. I agree that if you're really struggling financially then that does need to be taken into consideration in a big way, the thought of some sort of eugenics is beyond the pale. Speaking personally, I'm from a family of 5 children, we were dirt poor growing up and no doubt my family got more from the system than we put in during that time but all of us are now adults, we're all taxpayers and repaid that and then some.

Single mothers are the scapegoats but they really aren't the problem and I'm absolutely positive that most of them don't deliberately set out to be in those circumstances. I used to work for a housing charity and during that time did some voluntary work helping tenants with budgeting, understanding their bills and suchlike. The claims that they've all got the latest phones, high-end flat-screen TVs and designer clothes wasn't something I saw very often.

The issue, as both Larus and I have argued, is big business not paying their full whack and the government not having the balls to tackle the problem. There's around 3,500 people employed specifically to prevent benefit fraud whilst only 700 to prevent tax fraud. Benefit fraud is estimated at £1.3bn whilst the 'tax gap' (what should have come in versus what actually did) is estimated at £36bn a year. The focus is clearly arse about face but all the while we get the red top scare stories about benefit fraudsters, public anger is diverted.

Another issue is the disparity between the penalties and interest charged to big businesses and those given to small businesses. Vodafone, Starbucks and Google have gotten away with next to nothing in the way of punitive charges and even have enough clout to negotiate how much of their unpaid tax they are prepared to pay. It's a totally different story if you're a hairdresser, taxi driver or another of the businesses that HMRC regularly investigate (small businesses that have significant unreceipted cash income). I'm all for more transparency to show that we are all treated equally in the eyes of the law and would make it law that all HMRC decisions on tax evasion, the penalties imposed and the rate of interest charged are published. We need to start getting angry with companies that generate significant profits from the UK but who pay negligible UK tax.

 

[Justice]

Some of the principal reasons that people have to go to foodbanks:
- They have more kids than they can afford to feed
- Women have babies with unsuitable men, then split up, then (guess what?) fall on hard times. They need to be a lot more certain about their husbands before they start having kids.
- They spend their food money on feeding their dogs. All the poorest families seem to have mutts.
- They have the latest smartphones, tablets, an enormous TV in their living room, Sky ... and then wonder why there's no money left to feed the family.
- They throw their money away on gambling.

And then there's the small percentage who genuinely have fallen on hard times.

Did you shag a pigs head last night whilst stereotyping the poor?

 

[brightn'ove]

We're all earning more. It's all to do with the proportion of tax paid and the very poorest are paying a record low proportion and the wealthiest a record high.

Yes and the proportion of wealth owned by the top 1% is ever increasing, so again, not surprised that they pay more tax. They SHOULD pay more tax.

 

[brightn'ove]

It's a very slippery slope when we make comments about poor people having too many children. Firstly. I'm not sure that many poor people actually do have 5 children anymore. The average is still under 2 per family across the country and there's no indication that it's disproportionately higher in less well-off households. Secondly, unless you are super-rich I reckon that purely finance-wise it's never wise to have children. I agree that if you're really struggling financially then that does need to be taken into consideration in a big way, the thought of some sort of eugenics is beyond the pale. Speaking personally, I'm from a family of 5 children, we were dirt poor growing up and no doubt my family got more from the system than we put in during that time but all of us are now adults, we're all taxpayers and repaid that and then some.

Single mothers are the scapegoats but they really aren't the problem and I'm absolutely positive that most of them don't deliberately set out to be in those circumstances. I used to work for a housing charity and during that time did some voluntary work helping tenants with budgeting, understanding their bills and suchlike. The claims that they've all got the latest phones, high-end flat-screen TVs and designer clothes wasn't something I saw very often.

The issue, as both Larus and I have argued, is big business not paying their full whack and the government not having the balls to tackle the problem. There's around 3,500 people employed specifically to prevent benefit fraud whilst only 700 to prevent tax fraud. Benefit fraud is estimated at £1.3bn whilst the 'tax gap' (what should have come in versus what actually did) is estimated at £36bn a year. The focus is clearly arse about face but all the while we get the red top scare stories about benefit fraudsters, public anger is diverted.

Another issue is the disparity between the penalties and interest charged to big businesses and those given to small businesses. Vodafone, Starbucks and Google have gotten away with next to nothing in the way of punitive charges and even have enough clout to negotiate how much of their unpaid tax they are prepared to pay. It's a totally different story if you're a hairdresser, taxi driver or another of the businesses that HMRC regularly investigate (small businesses that have significant unreceipted cash income). I'm all for more transparency to show that we are all treated equally in the eyes of the law and would make it law that all HMRC decisions on tax evasion, the penalties imposed and the rate of interest charged are published. We need to start getting angry with companies that generate significant profits from the UK but who pay negligible UK tax.

Agree with every word of this however

 

[Dick Head]

A splendid advert for the abolition of the thumbs down option!

 

[Buzzer]

Yes and the proportion of wealth owned by the top 1% is ever increasing, so again, not surprised that they pay more tax. They SHOULD pay more tax.

A recent analysis of implementing Labour's proposed increased tax for the very wealthy came to the conclusion that Labour's claim that it would raise £5bn was optimistic at best and at worst could result in less tax collected. The head of the OBR, the independent body responsible for analysing and advising public finances, said a few years ago that the top income tax rates were "strolling across the summit of the Laffer curve”. This is the universally respected economic model that shows just how high taxes can be set before it becomes counter-productive. The mass exodus of high-earners in France is a good example.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7066

I do think it's worth repeating that the top earners now contribute a record 30% of all taxes raised. It's all well and good wanting that to be even higher but these are also the people most able to avoid paying any UK tax. A balance needs to be struck and just my opinion but I think it's at a fair level right now.

 

[Spicy]

It’s also incredibly sad and depressing that this lecture comes from a man of dubious integrity, who gets paid £6,000,000.00 a year to manage a football team and who only really cares about his own bank balance.

Very true and hope he put his hand in his own pocket, or someone else's, and made a donation.

 

[janee]

Some of the principal reasons that people have to go to foodbanks:
- They have more kids than they can afford to feed
- Women have babies with unsuitable men, then split up, then (guess what?) fall on hard times. They need to be a lot more certain about their husbands before they start having kids.
- They spend their food money on feeding their dogs. All the poorest families seem to have mutts.
- They have the latest smartphones, tablets, an enormous TV in their living room, Sky ... and then wonder why there's no money left to feed the family.
- They throw their money away on gambling.

And then there's the small percentage who genuinely have fallen on hard times.

At work, I do dispense food bank vouchers and work with people who need them. Here are the causes that I see that have very little to do with your guesses above:

People have rents higher than their incomes allow - £50 a month more than housing benefit is impossible to find form a minimum income - this only happened in the last few years

People have serious disabilities or mental health problems often from abuse or other complex issues

Benefits have been frozen for years whilst the cost of fuel, council tax and food have risen

Benefit sanctions have been introduced to meet welfare reduction targets - particularly hitting those with complex needs who cannot deal with complexity

Most people I work with have very few children, no mobiles ( which they need to not be sanctioned from benefits)

I'm wondering if you know any people who actually use food banks or people on minimum incomes?

 

[Boroseagull]

Always being how long? This confuses me a bit.

They started in the UK in 2008 .....under the then Labour government.

 

[maltaseagull]

Tories making Britain crap again

They aren't doing very well in improving it from where it was in 2008 more like.
Both parties have screwed the country in various ways but far too many will only accept that the other side is at fault.
We need a fully representative coalition government which is determined to do the right thing and not what their party funders want.

 

[Buzzer]

Always being how long? This confuses me a bit.

George Orwell wrote about soup kitchens in Wigan in the 30s. Charles Dickens Christmas Carol mentions 2 chaps collecting charity donations for food for the poor. How far back do you want to go?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Very true and hope he put his hand in his own pocket, or someone else's, and made a donation.

Like Wayne Rooney, for example. I'd like to see the red tops have this on their front page, for a change.

https://twitter.com/EvertonNewsFeed/status/944328123293761536

[tweet]944328123293761536[/tweet]

 

[Brovion]

It's not really surprising is it? Surely no one wants to see Food Banks in Britain and we all think it's a pretty sad state of affairs; he was hardly going to come out and say that this what happens when you're a feckless wastrel. Talk is cheap. What would have been 'surprising' was if we'd have found out he was donating half his salary to charity.

 

[maltaseagull]

This Tory Government is driving those who need help the most into poverty what a nasty bunch they are only interested in their own kind

Any real facts to support this?
Or just the usual left wing slur?
There are hundreds of tory MPs and they are all looking after their own kind? (What is their own kind by the way?)

 

[portlock seagull]

It's a very slippery slope when we make comments about poor people having too many children. Firstly. I'm not sure that many poor people actually do have 5 children anymore. The average is still under 2 per family across the country and there's no indication that it's disproportionately higher in less well-off households. Secondly, unless you are super-rich I reckon that purely finance-wise it's never wise to have children. I agree that if you're really struggling financially then that does need to be taken into consideration in a big way, the thought of some sort of eugenics is beyond the pale. Speaking personally, I'm from a family of 5 children, we were dirt poor growing up and no doubt my family got more from the system than we put in during that time but all of us are now adults, we're all taxpayers and repaid that and then some.

Single mothers are the scapegoats but they really aren't the problem and I'm absolutely positive that most of them don't deliberately set out to be in those circumstances. I used to work for a housing charity and during that time did some voluntary work helping tenants with budgeting, understanding their bills and suchlike. The claims that they've all got the latest phones, high-end flat-screen TVs and designer clothes wasn't something I saw very often.

The issue, as both Larus and I have argued, is big business not paying their full whack and the government not having the balls to tackle the problem. There's around 3,500 people employed specifically to prevent benefit fraud whilst only 700 to prevent tax fraud. Benefit fraud is estimated at £1.3bn whilst the 'tax gap' (what should have come in versus what actually did) is estimated at £36bn a year. The focus is clearly arse about face but all the while we get the red top scare stories about benefit fraudsters, public anger is diverted.

Another issue is the disparity between the penalties and interest charged to big businesses and those given to small businesses. Vodafone, Starbucks and Google have gotten away with next to nothing in the way of punitive charges and even have enough clout to negotiate how much of their unpaid tax they are prepared to pay. It's a totally different story if you're a hairdresser, taxi driver or another of the businesses that HMRC regularly investigate (small businesses that have significant unreceipted cash income). I'm all for more transparency to show that we are all treated equally in the eyes of the law and would make it law that all HMRC decisions on tax evasion, the penalties imposed and the rate of interest charged are published. We need to start getting angry with companies that generate significant profits from the UK but who pay negligible UK tax.

You need to read part 2, only speaking from my experience adding that a lot of people I know also have no kids. Those that do, 3 kids isn’t uncommon and 4,5 even is more common than you think. Seems that average figure doesn’t add much in the way of this debate. But yes, don’t get me started on corporate tax avoidance. It’s a far bigger problem than benefits ‘abuse’

 

[Wardy's twin]

View attachment 92219

Love it....

 

[Se20]

I'm sure Sam and his millionaire squad will have made a substantial donation to the cause .