Star Wars: The Force Awakens - with Spoilers - discussion thread

[sussex_guy2k2]

Weird. Have you seen Adam Driver in anything before?

No I haven't, I must say. Any recommendations?

As I said before, it was a fun film that I got enjoyment from, but I found his performance to be really weak without the mask. Maybe it didn't help that they nurfed his Force abilities once he took it off and once he came up against Finn and Rey...

 

[Triggaaar]

On Rey being Luke's daughter:

Daisy Ridley is 8.5 years younger than Adam Driver. I don't know how many years younger Rey is than Kylo Ren, maybe a bit more. And how old was Ben when he turned to the dark side? You'd think he'd be a teenager, meaning that he'd know Luke had a daughter, so he'd have know Rey was his cousin.
Maybe Ben is more like 11 or 12 years older than Rey, and turned to the dark side before she was born, but it doesn't make total sense yet.

 

[Triggaaar]

No I haven't, I must say. Any recommendations?

No, I haven't either and wondered if that was the reason you couldn't take him seriously, as you knew him in another role. I was pleased his voice didn't go from menacing to child like. Imagine if the mask had come off to reveal another Hayden Christensen

As I said before, it was a fun film that I got enjoyment from, but I found his performance to be really weak without the mask. Maybe it didn't help that they nurfed his Force abilities once he took it off and once he came up against Finn and Rey...

He was a bit nerfed because Chewie had shot him, but I'd have liked him to try to use the force more against Finn and Rey.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

No, I haven't either and wondered if that was the reason you couldn't take him seriously, as you knew him in another role. I was pleased his voice didn't go from menacing to child like. Imagine if the mask had come off to reveal another Hayden Christensen

He was a bit nerfed because Chewie had shot him, but I'd have liked him to try to use the force more against Finn and Rey.

I think that's the thing, anyone would've been better than HC who is arguably the most wooden actor on the planet next to Clive Owen. I think it may be one of those where he takes me out of the experience less on a second viewing - it's just frustrating as I thought he nailed it up until he took the helmet off.

I guess - like you said, he should've adapted and used the Force to his advantage in that situation. Finn was far too strong against him in the light saber fight at the end for my liking, especially considering their different levels of experience and training.

 

[AmexRuislip]

On Rey being Luke's daughter:

Daisy Ridley is 8.5 years younger than Adam Driver. I don't know how many years younger Rey is than Kylo Ren, maybe a bit more. And how old was Ben when he turned to the dark side? You'd think he'd be a teenager, meaning that he'd know Luke had a daughter, so he'd have know Rey was his cousin.
Maybe Ben is more like 11 or 12 years older than Rey, and turned to the dark side before she was born, but it doesn't make total sense yet.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/1308...ar-wars-the-force-awakens-you-may-have-missed

 

[Triggaaar]

I guess - like you said, he should've adapted and used the Force to his advantage in that situation. Finn was far too strong against him in the light saber fight at the end for my liking, especially considering their different levels of experience and training.

It's difficult to know - Finn was certainly very well trained to fight, from a very young age, but you'd think with a blaster. Saying that though, Finn fights another stormtrooper who is using a melee weapon, so is it unrealistic to think Finn has never learnt to use one? I'd have liked Kylo Ren to win more easily though. Maybe I'm underestimating the difficulty of fighting after being shot by Chewie, a shot that would have killed most people.

 

[Triggaaar]

http://www.bustle.com/articles/1308...ar-wars-the-force-awakens-you-may-have-missed

Nice:
"Kylo taunts her by revealing some of her innermost thoughts. He recounts how, when she struggles to fall asleep, Rey imagines a vast ocean, with an island in the middle. At the time, this seems like an insignificant detail, but when you consider Star Wars' closing scene, it becomes extremely important."

"Consider the fact that Rey seems to have spent her entire life on Jakku, a desert planet. When she first goes to Takodana with Han and Chewie, she is overwhelmed by its lush nature, and remarks to Han that she didn't know this much green existed. It shows how sheltered Rey has been by refusing to leave Jakku, and how unfamiliar she is with other settings. This makes the fact that she even imagined a large ocean and island stand out"

 

[AmexRuislip]

 

[Acker79]

I wasn't saying Palaptine made him, but Plagueis.

Yep, just getting characters confused as I type.

I don't watch anything that's not canon, and I haven't read anything from anyone else, it's just what I took from the movies. It's pretty bloody clear to me that Palpatine is saying Anakin was created by Plagueis. You don't need my description, you can read the quote I posted.

I did read the quote you posted, and again, it didn't read to me like it was revealling as fact that Plaqueis created Anakin. A quick google search seemed to suggest that it wasn't generally accepted as fact that Plagueis created Anakin, but it seems to be a fan theory. Obviously, the fan theory has come from the scene you mentioned so I don't suggest you're making any crazy leaps or anything, but there is nothing in the official star wars biography about that being his origin: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

I'm not sure what you're saying - I don't think that was a surprise at all. Jedi don't grow on trees.

There were quite a few younglings. We're told in the years since Jedi, Luke set about identifying potential Jedis and training them suggesting there are, or at least have been, an increase in force-sensitive beings in the universe. Palpatine didn't have much of a history, neither did Maul, Grievous or Dooku. So it's not unlike Star Wars to happen to have a sith appear from nowhere.

Some people were questioning if Ren would be Luke gone bad, some suggesting it was his son. There wasn't, as far as I saw, a large contingent of people suspecting Ren was Solo's son. I know it wasn't something that crossed my mind.

Palpetine told this tale to a young Anakin, before Luke was born, so obviously Rey wasn't the life created.

But it's not necessarily obvious. This is a fantasy sci fi, where a walking dog lives to 400 years old. If Plagueis craved immortality, and created life using the force, isn't it entirely possible that the life he creates is more robust than mere humans (especially considering the force helps jedis live longer)? That while Rey is played by a 20-something, her character could actually be older.

Kylo Ren could turn to the light, he already has conflict. That could be less likely now that he's killed Solo, but Vader had been pretty naughty too.

But they are both examples of light turning dark turning back light (assuming the new trilogy ignores the plagueis created anakin theory). Rey, created by Plagueis being the embodiment of the dark side of the force turning good would be a different spin on the story.

I was the opposite. Why would he be disfigured?

I don't know. But I know when we saw Vader without a mask in Empire, the scars/disfigurement added some mystique. Without them, when Kylo removes his mask, he's just a boy, which jarred with the threatening monster he appeared to be before the mask was removed.

Weird. Have you seen Adam Driver in anything before?

No I haven't, I must say. Any recommendations?

I've only seen him in Inside Llewyn Davis, but his role was quite small. There's not a huge amount more to it than the youtube video I posted above where he sings with Justin Timberlake and Poe Dameron.

 

[Acker79]

I guess - like you said, he should've adapted and used the Force to his advantage in that situation. Finn was far too strong against him in the light saber fight at the end for my liking, especially considering their different levels of experience and training.

I think with Fin, it was more a case of Ren toying with his prey. Yeah, there was an element of injury weakening Kylo, but it felt like 'who does this chump think he is using a light sabre against me?!

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Well..I liked it. I'm not overly bothered who begat who or the deeper meanings. I just like X wings blowing tie fighters up and the allusions to apocalypse now as the rebel fighters roar in over the ocean.

 

[herecomesaregular]

I enjoyed it a lot, mainly for how it "looked" (which was superb) and bb8.

Kylo Ren was doing well as a bad guy.......until the mask came off. It's such an obvious flaw, keep the bad guy mysterious as long as you can don't unmask him too soon, and it was much too soon as Film One in the new series

Sadly, the more I think about the rehashed story (droid carries important message for the resistance, lands on desert world, father /son good guy/bad guy, they meet on a narrow platform above empty space, yet another bleedin' death star - oh but it's bigger and oh they've left the backdoor open and poorly defended again) the more my score is going down.... anyway I enjoyed it a lot at the time *shrug*. Was it really necessary to be so derivative of it's own series?

Will probably see it again at the cinema, this time in 2D.

 

[shaolinpunk]

The whole story of the prequels was of a prophecy of someone so powerful they would bring balance to the force. I think that, rather than it being Anakin, it's Rey.

With seemingly zero training she has force pulled a lightsaber, influenced a stormtrooper and resisted Kylo Ren's mind reading (admittedly he's very rough around the edges and probably not at the level of a Sith Lord yet). She also bested Kylo in combat but he was injured, fuelled purely by pain and anger, plus he said himself he needs to complete his training.

 

[Acker79]

Just because Empire had a now infamous plot twist, doesn't mean this episode has to have one too. There's some criticism of repetition (death star number 3 and counting, father and son version 2 etc) already, there doesn't need to be another surprise - and to be honest, for it to be as surprising as Vader being Luke's father, Rey's father would have to be Chewie.

No, empire having one does mean this series has to have one, but the pattern of so many plot points being repeated so far suggests there will be one.

But more importantly, when you introduce someone with a mysterious background, as they have done with Rey, it raises expectation. If the resolution to this mystery is as obvious as 'Luke is your father', it draws comparisons to other recent films (I want to avoid spoiling them) where everyone knew who the bad guy was, then at some point in each of these two films we get the big dramatic reveal that these people who went by alternative names are actually... the very people we all knew they were anyway, leaving a flat 'yeah, and?' feeling.

I've seen JJ Abrams comment on one of those examples as a mistake.

 

[Acker79]

The whole story of the prequels was of a prophecy of someone so powerful they would bring balance to the force. I think that, rather than it being Anakin, it's Rey.

With seemingly zero training she has force pulled a lightsaber, influenced a stormtrooper and resisted Kylo Ren's mind reading (admittedly he's very rough around the edges and probably not at the level of a Sith Lord yet). She also bested Kylo in combat but he was injured, fuelled purely by pain and anger, plus he said himself he needs to complete his training.

On the other hand, "always two there are; a master and an apprentice" - that always seemed like an unfair fight to me 2 sith v a jedi council, and an academy of younglings. By killling off so many Jedi, it brought a bit more balance to it, on the sith side the emperor and vader, on the other yoda and kenobi. When kenobi died it was yoda and skywalker. When yoda died it was skywalker and leia.

2 v 2 - force balanced.

 

[shaolinpunk]

On the other hand, "always two there are; a master and an apprentice" - that always seemed like an unfair fight to me 2 sith v a jedi council, and an academy of younglings. By killling off so many Jedi, it brought a bit more balance to it, on the sith side the emperor and vader, on the other yoda and kenobi. When kenobi died it was yoda and skywalker. When yoda died it was skywalker and leia.

2 v 2 - force balanced.

I'm aware of the perfectly fair belief that, by eliminating most of the Jedi, Anakin did indeed balance it. However, the real world has shown that interpretation of religious texts can result in wildly different outcomes from the same starting point. To the Jedi, balance may mean that the Sith are no longer a danger to the universe.

 

[Triggaaar]

A quick google search seemed to suggest that it wasn't generally accepted as fact that Plagueis created Anakin, but it seems to be a fan theory. Obviously, the fan theory has come from the scene you mentioned so I don't suggest you're making any crazy leaps or anything, but there is nothing in the official star wars biography about that being his origin: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

Ok

There were quite a few younglings. We're told in the years since Jedi, Luke set about identifying potential Jedis and training them suggesting there are, or at least have been, an increase in force-sensitive beings in the universe.

I don't see that as an increase, there have always been some people who are force sensitive, and suitable to be trained as a Jedi, as there were in the prequels. With the originals though, Yoda and Obiwan were in hiding, it wasn't the time to looking for young apprentices.

Palpatine didn't have much of a history, neither did Maul, Grievous or Dooku.

Dooku did, he was Qui-Gon Jinn's master. Grievous didn't have the force. The others would have history, it just wasn't shown in the movies. Not that it matters, I'm not saying every character has to have descended from someone important. What I am saying, is that we knew Leia and Han Solo were in love, and that if Leia had children they would be powerful, so before we were told anything about this movie we'd have been expecting a child of theirs to exist and have the force. Since there were only two young characters with the force in this movie, it should come as no surprise that one of them is Han and Leia's child.

/QUOTE]Some people were questioning if Ren would be Luke gone bad[/QUOTE]As I said some time back, that would be ridiculous. Luke faced the Emperor and his father together, and watched his friends face certain death, and he still couldn't be turned. It wouldn't have made sense for Luke to have gone to the dark side after ROTJ.

some suggesting it was his son.

That wouldn't have been a surprise.

There wasn't, as far as I saw, a large contingent of people suspecting Ren was Solo's son. I know it wasn't something that crossed my mind.

So people thought there was a good chance of him being Luke's son, but it never crossed their minds he could have been Leia's son? The force is weak in your family.

But it's not necessarily obvious. This is a fantasy sci fi, where a walking dog lives to 400 years old. If Plagueis craved immortality, and created life using the force, isn't it entirely possible that the life he creates is more robust than mere humans (especially considering the force helps jedis live longer)? That while Rey is played by a 20-something, her character could actually be older.

It may be a sci-fi, but there are some rules in the universe. So far, if we've seen someone that looks like a human, then they've been a human (even the clones), and if they're free from scars (unlike the Emperor), then they are the age they look. It's a huge stretch to suggest Rey was born before Luke.

But they are both examples of light turning dark turning back light (assuming the new trilogy ignores the plagueis created anakin theory). Rey, created by Plagueis being the embodiment of the dark side of the force turning good would be a different spin on the story.

I've not problem with some characters (depending how much we know about them, and why they turn) turning from light to dark, or vice versa. I'm not saying it's impossible for Rey to have been created by the force, as Anakin was, but she wouldn't be the person Palpatine was referring to. And she wouldn't be dark turning light - being created by dark forces doesn't mean you are dark - as Anakin didn't start dark.

I don't know. But I know when we saw Vader without a mask in Empire, the scars/disfigurement added some mystique. Without them, when Kylo removes his mask, he's just a boy, which jarred with the threatening monster he appeared to be before the mask was removed.

That's a matter of opinion, and I've no problem that's how you see it, it's just not how I see it. Of course Vader had mystique, he had mystique from the moment Leia saw him and said 'Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold.' - he had a dark history already. Kylo Ren doesn't have that history, he is young. And to me it wouldn't make sense for him to never take his mask off. He wears it through choice as a style statement, he doesn't have to wear it. And it helps to see the human element to him, he's not the creature that Vader was. Not yet.

Kylo Ren was doing well as a bad guy.......until the mask came off. It's such an obvious flaw, keep the bad guy mysterious as long as you can don't unmask him too soon, and it was much too soon as Film One in the new series

That's opinion, not fact. It's not like Ren is The bad guy, he's A bad guy, and he's not strange mysterious bad guy, he's the son of Princess Leia and Han Solo.

Sadly, the more I think about the rehashed story (droid carries important message for the resistance, lands on desert world, father /son good guy/bad guy, they meet on a narrow platform above empty space, yet another bleedin' death star - oh but it's bigger and oh they've left the backdoor open and poorly defended again) the more my score is going down.... anyway I enjoyed it a lot at the time *shrug*. Was it really necessary to be so derivative of it's own series?

A droid carrying an important messages is not that shocking, it happens in that galaxy. There wasn't a father/son good guy/bad guy, as Han Solo is not a particularly good guy, he's a scoundrel who's in it for the money. I don't think they needed death star number 3, it would have been better without IMO - but if you do have a planet that draws that much energy, it's going to be volatile, just like I imagine nuclear energy plants are a little volatile, and would suffer if an insider turns traitor.

Will probably see it again at the cinema, this time in 2D.

You saw it in 3D! Beginner's mistake.

 

[Triggaaar]

But more importantly, when you introduce someone with a mysterious background, as they have done with Rey, it raises expectation. If the resolution to this mystery is as obvious as 'Luke is your father'... leaving a flat 'yeah, and?' feeling.

Well everyone thinks Rey is Luke's daughter, and if she is, maybe the feeling of the movie isn't supposed to come from a reveal of who she is.

I've seen JJ Abrams comment on one of those examples as a mistake.

I don't know the movies, so maybe you're on to something, maybe he wanted it to be something surprising. But don't get your hopes up. If you're right, cool, but if you're not, you'll be disappointed.

 

[Triggaaar]

The whole story of the prequels was of a prophecy of someone so powerful they would bring balance to the force. I think that, rather than it being Anakin, it's Rey.

I'm pretty sure it was Anakin at the time. He did kill the Emporer after all. If they now make it Rey, they could just as easily change it again in 30 years when another trilogy comes out.

With seemingly zero training she has force pulled a lightsaber, influenced a stormtrooper and resisted Kylo Ren's mind reading (admittedly he's very rough around the edges and probably not at the level of a Sith Lord yet). She also bested Kylo in combat but he was injured, fuelled purely by pain and anger, plus he said himself he needs to complete his training.

She certainly is powerful. We're not too sure she never had any training, hopefully we'll learn more.

On the other hand, "always two there are; a master and an apprentice" - that always seemed like an unfair fight to me 2 sith v a jedi council, and an academy of younglings. By killling off so many Jedi, it brought a bit more balance to it, on the sith side the emperor and vader, on the other yoda and kenobi. When kenobi died it was yoda and skywalker. When yoda died it was skywalker and leia.

2 v 2 - force balanced.

It's only on the Sith side it's supposed to be 2. Yoda and Kenobi weren't together as a pair, Yoda died before Luke even became a Jedi, and Leia isn't a Jedi, so doesn't count (or if she does count, include her in your previous pairings, as she was there). It's not like a video game, it's not supposed to be balanced like that. The Sith had an Empire of troops, and still have the storm troopers, who outnumber the resistance.

 

[Acker79]

I don't see that as an increase, there have always been some people who are force sensitive, and suitable to be trained as a Jedi, as there were in the prequels. With the originals though, Yoda and Obiwan were in hiding, it wasn't the time to looking for young apprentices.

The originals: Jedis: Obi Wan (died), Yoda (died), Anakin (died), Luke. Total number of jedi knights mentioned or alluded to: 4

New trilogy: Jedis: All the ones the scroll tells us Luke has been training

I'd say that was an increase of actual Jedi, unless he only found 3. With that increase in actual jedi comes an increase in potential jedis that can be turned to become the villain, without a genetic link to Luke or Leia.

Dooku did, he was Qui-Gon Jinn's master.

Mentioned in passing...

Grievous didn't have the force.

Not relevant to the point I was making

The others would have history, it just wasn't shown in the movies.

Quite.

My point was that these bad guys were not descendants of Skywalker. They were introduced out of nowhere, new to each film. Which meant Kylo Ren didn't have to be related to Skywalker. He, too, could have come from nowhere.

What I am saying, is that we knew Leia and Han Solo were in love, and that if Leia had children they would be powerful, so before we were told anything about this movie we'd have been expecting a child of theirs to exist and have the force. Since there were only two young characters with the force in this movie, it should come as no surprise that one of them is Han and Leia's child.

Non of the official pre-release information confirmed they had kid(s), there were clear suggestions that the two of them weren't together (they are shown to have different lives - han still the space pirate, Leia still the rebellion fighter. I'm not saying it was a shock on the level of Vader, but it wasn't something I was expecting.

So people thought there was a good chance of him being Luke's son, but it never crossed their minds he could have been Leia's son? The force is weak in your family.

Leia doesn't embrace the force. She didn't train to become a Jedi. It's easy to forget the force lives in her, too.

It may be a sci-fi, but there are some rules in the universe. So far, if we've seen someone that looks like a human, then they've been a human (even the clones), and if they're free from scars (unlike the Emperor), then they are the age they look. It's a huge stretch to suggest Rey was born before Luke.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

I've not problem with some characters (depending how much we know about them, and why they turn) turning from light to dark, or vice versa. I'm not saying it's impossible for Rey to have been created by the force, as Anakin was, but she wouldn't be the person Palpatine was referring to. And she wouldn't be dark turning light - being created by dark forces doesn't mean you are dark - as Anakin didn't start dark.

The problem with this argument, of course, being it relies on your belief that Anakin was created by Plagueis being a fact, which it is not (evidenced by the fact his official star wars bio doesn't include this rather important bit of information).

You saw it in 3D! Beginner's mistake.

Schoolboy error.