[Albion] ST revoked for touting Arsenal game? Now with PB response (post #306)

[nigeyb]

As others are saying, don't advertise!!! It really is that simple. If you are dumb enough to advertise you are dumb enough to 'sell' your ticket to anyone that offers the price you are asking without being too bothered whether they are likely to cause trouble or even support the away team!!

The truth is the club have an obligation to the membership groups to ensure tickets are sold in order of the priority set out at the time. If people have paid for a membership which entitles them to get tickets then they will be understandably aggrieved if others who haven't given that commitment are getting tickets from other sources. Where I agree with others is that there should be a better 'offiicial' ticket exchange. £25 rebate on next years season ticket with a limit of 6 occasions when you can do this (and no doubt you only get the rebate if your ticket is subsequently sold which, in view of the sell outs we're having, shouldn't be a problem).

Agreed.

And a system to non-ST holders to return tickets they can't use. That said, I am sure we've all bought tickets for events that, subsequently, we can't make. It happens.

 

[drew]

So you can’t advertise a ticket bought from the Albion, but it’s ok if you support any other club in the country.

I’m beginning to think Barber has succeeded in brainwashing everyone apart from Bozza and me into not being able to see that they’ve gone way OTT on this mission of theirs.

Calling people “genuinely ignorant” does you no favours. It isn’t / was t ignorance, it’s understanding the moral difference between trying to make a profit and circumstances changing.

Sorry but it is ignorance, ignorance of the fact that you shouldn't advertise your ticket for sale. There have been plenty of threads on this in the past so, assuming this person is a genuine fan (and if he is on a facebook fan page then surely he is on NSC) he must have seen this discussed. Especially the fact that the ticket exchange on here was stopped and that, if I recall, there was a sticky about not selling tickets on the forum!!!

 

[Horses Arse]

So you can’t advertise a ticket bought from the Albion, but it’s ok if you support any other club in the country.

I’m beginning to think Barber has succeeded in brainwashing everyone apart from Bozza and me into not being able to see that they’ve gone way OTT on this mission of theirs.

Calling people “genuinely ignorant” does you no favours. It isn’t / was t ignorance, it’s understanding the moral difference between trying to make a profit and circumstances changing.

The unthinking backing of the club on NSC is disappointing. There are a number of people who have directly experienced the negative side of the club who see very clearly the excessive corporate approach and focus on new/returning support base over those that have been a part of the journey. Those lucky ones that have not experienced this blindly criticise those suffering the consequences.

Whilst I'm not suggesting for a minute that this club is in anyway at risk you can see how football clubs get into such difficulty when the support base is so blind. Stick an asset stripper in charge and you'll have 2-3 years of enough blind backing in which you can destroy the club. What is so disappointing is that given the experiences that this clubs support has been through there remains such blind near universal backing of absolutely everything the club does. It's not healthy.

 

[nigeyb]

So you can’t advertise a ticket bought from the Albion, but it’s ok if you support any other club in the country.

Out of curiosity, what leads you to conclude that "any other club in the country" allows, or at least tolerates, supporters to engage in unofficial secondary ticketing?

 

[drew]

Does anyone know if the club are currently looking at second hand sales options other than the existing one?

Just a quick look and it appears Liverpool and Man Utd have two different systems. The latter have a tie in with Viagogo and looking at their seats for our match they seem to be selling above face value which presumably is the commission for viagogo. Liverpool have their own and offer a reduction on your season ticket for the following year but not to the pro rata value of the seat! Oddly they allow you to use the site as many times as you like in a season!! (I see Liverpool offer finance deal for their season tickets with an effective interest rate of 5.25%)

 

[sully]

Sorry but it is ignorance, ignorance of the fact that you shouldn't advertise your ticket for sale. There have been plenty of threads on this in the past so, assuming this person is a genuine fan (and if he is on a facebook fan page then surely he is on NSC) he must have seen this discussed. Especially the fact that the ticket exchange on here was stopped and that, if I recall, there was a sticky about not selling tickets on the forum!!!

You are showing your own ignorance. Why assume that someone on a Facebook group is also on here? I know plenty who never read NSC.

Plenty of people have other aspects to their lives, too and I have shared information I’ve gleaned on here with them. Not everyone will have someone doing that for them.

Finally, I’ve mentioned before that the person I know was apprehended after the Chelsea game, when the ticket exchange was still active on here. When the club rejected his appeal and gave reasons that made no sense (seems like just a bulk decision not taking circumstances into account), his response was “**** ‘em then”. I can assure you that his entire support network feel much the same about how he’s been treated. That’s a lot of pissed off long term supporters.

 

[nigeyb]

If I'm reading this page correctly then any unauthorised football ticket sales are illegal in the UK which suggest Sully's claim is complete bollocks...

So you can’t advertise a ticket bought from the Albion, but it’s ok if you support any other club in the country.

From Ticket touting and football

This means the legislation in place to deal with ticket touting in football applies to all games played within England, all games that English sides may be involved in, and all games the Welsh and English national teams will be involved in, including World Cup and European Championships qualifying matches and international friendly matches.

How do I know if the ticket I purchase is authorised?

If you purchase a ticket from someone outside a football ground, it should be clear they are not an authorised seller of the ticket. Tickets sold over the internet are more problematic as sometimes clubs will sell through authorised agents. The only way really to guarantee you have an authorised ticket is if you purchase it directly from the club or through their official website.

So it appears the club is enforcing the law - anyone selling on a ticket is breaking the law even if you sell it below face value

 

[dazzer6666]

I’ve said it several times, he advertised it for less than he paid. It was last minute when he found he couldn’t go, so even the club limiting the selling pool as that point is a bit silly. It was advertised to a Brighton fans group and the purchaser was checked out to make sure they were a BHA fan.

Where we’re all you lot while the ticket exchange forum was functioning adequately on here? Nobody was reprimanding people who found they couldn’t go then, we’re they?

Problem the club have is I guess what to allow and what not to allow, and where does the line get drawn - there have been some stupid posts on some of the facebook groups for example. In practice anyone selling a ticket to another fan at face value or less because they can’t make the game should be ok, but it’s virtually impossible to control this.

Still for me comes back to the club failing to put in place some form of online, real-time or near real-time exchange (ideally through an app) that facilitates the simple sale of tickets at face value to registered fans, with the seller getting cash back and not tat vouchers (with a limited use period).

As an example, Arsenal have this at least for STHs so presumably the software exists. Anyone selling gets the cash back, or a discount on their season ticket next season, less a 10% admin charge. When games are sold out, they can electronically transfer their ticket to a family member or friend.

It’s maybe not the full answer, but it’s better than what we’ve got.

https://www.arsenal.com/ticketexchange

 

[drew]

The unthinking backing of the club on NSC is disappointing. There are a number of people who have directly experienced the negative side of the club who see very clearly the excessive corporate approach and focus on new/returning support base over those that have been a part of the journey. Those lucky ones that have not experienced this blindly criticise those suffering the consequences.

Whilst I'm not suggesting for a minute that this club is in anyway at risk you can see how football clubs get into such difficulty when the support base is so blind. Stick an asset stripper in charge and you'll have 2-3 years of enough blind backing in which you can destroy the club. What is so disappointing is that given the experiences that this clubs support has been through there remains such blind near universal backing of absolutely everything the club does. It's not healthy.

Few assumptions there. Just because some can see why the club have taken the stance on this issue (ie. not 'unthinking', just a different view), don't assume that they also support everything the club does. I have had email disagreements with PB in the past on some issues but I take the view that we are better off with someone like him in charge than some of the other CEOs at other clubs!!!

We went from a fanbase of diehards of about 6/7k to a situation where the fanbase needed to support the viability of the new stadium so it would be stupid to not to expect the club to court new fans (some of which were returning from pre Withdean days (although, based on attendance at the Goldstone, still less than half of a full Amex). Do you really think the club should be treating us 'original' fans any different from those that have appeared in recent years? (The exception to this is the loyalty points scheme).

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I’m not having a go but you do seem to want the club to organize it’s ticketing around your particular requirements. You have been very vocal in making suggestions, all of which suit you best. I’m thinking of your opposition to loyalty points amongst other things.
Regarding your current suggestion perhaps the club just don’t want an ever expanded secondary market in home tickets where people are able to buy tickets without a commitment to attending the game. Once purchased they can then sit on the tickets whilst deciding whether to go or not and thus prevent someone else from having them. I can’t help but feel that once again you are not seeing this from other people’s point of view.

I know you're not having a go, and I can see the clubs point of view - to a degree - and I dislike touting, and yes, I also dislike harvesting of loyalty points or people holding season tickets but not using them much personally. But its c*nts who want to exploit any of these systems for personal gain that end up with normal fans getting sledgehammered. I've been able to pass tickets on to people with 1,000's of NSC posts, and receive tickets from people with 1,000's of NSC posts, and the NSC ticket exchange was a godsend to expats going right back into the early withdean years.

Please also understand that 'my particular requirements' are not particularly particular to me. The figure is something like 5-10% of all away tickets go unused and we know there is substantial demand for these tickets. Any well-managed ticket exchange scheme would make a profit for the club and would discourage touting, so it would be win-win.

If I find myself in the same situation again I WILL try and shift the tickets on - its not so easy now I'll have little choice, its too much money to throw away - and take my chances. But if the club were to offer me a refund in club-shop vouchers, or 75% of purchase price, or 50% off tickets for the next game, or whatever they want to do, I'd probably choose that option instead - and that way my tickets won't be on the black market somewhere, the club can ensure that bronze members or purchase history people get the seats, they make more money, and the seats won't be empty and atmosphere better. Surely you agree that would be win-win-win-win?

 

[Withdean]

Here in the US selling on your tickets is probably illegal in many states, but it happens privately and publicly on Craigslist etc.

You can also sell back to a club your unwanted tickets for resale. I once sat next to the person who sold back several tickets.

Plus my local team’s own ticketing system allows you to email tickets. That’s handy to send tickets to someone making their own way to the ground.

It just seems crazy and very anti consumer to criminalize giving a friend your tickets cos you can’t go.

 

[drew]

You are showing your own ignorance. Why assume that someone on a Facebook group is also on here? I know plenty who never read NSC.

Plenty of people have other aspects to their lives, too and I have shared information I’ve gleaned on here with them. Not everyone will have someone doing that for them.

Finally, I’ve mentioned before that the person I know was apprehended after the Chelsea game, when the ticket exchange was still active on here. When the club rejected his appeal and gave reasons that made no sense (seems like just a bulk decision not taking circumstances into account), his response was “**** ‘em then”. I can assure you that his entire support network feel much the same about how he’s been treated. That’s a lot of pissed off long term supporters.

Anyone who claims to be a fan and follows a facebook page and not NSC can only be deemed as ignorant!!!

As for the ticket exchange on NSC, I wasn't aware that it was still active at the time of the Chelsea home game although I believe it has been made clear some years before that you couldn't advertise tickets for sale.

Difficult to comment properly on your friend without know the full story, ie when the ticket was bought, when and what were the circumstances that prevented him going and finally what was the actual wording of the final decision of the club. Also, when he realised he couldn't go due to these 'circumstances' did he get in touch with the club first!

 

[Goldstone1976]

I think that a lot of the angst around this topic from reasonable fans would disappear if the club did two things:

1) introduce a functioning, official, automatic ticket exchange, which gave a fair return to the fan (something like the Arsenal one that was linked earlier). This would prevent LP harvesting and the chance of home tickets ending up with away fans, and would minimise the availability of tickets going to touts.

2) state what constitutes “sold out”. My sense, from observing when the existing exchenge has gone live for previous games, is that the bar is currently set too high. For an exchange to work, sellers need sufficient time to upload their tickets and buyers need time to buy them.

I think that the club have cracked down on unofficial exchanges (such as NSC) a bit too early. I support the direction the club is going (stop touting, stop LP harvesting etc), but I do think it’s incumbent on them to have a fit for purpose official replacement. The current one simply isn’t.

We, as fans, should also recognise that there are some folk who hold tickets and even STs who won’t play fair, no matter what system the club puts in place - some will seek to profiteer. Those should be extended no sympathy, and the club would be doing everyone a service if they were banned.

 

[dazzer6666]

I think that a lot of the angst around this topic from reasonable fans would disappear if the club did two things:

1) introduce a functioning, official, automatic ticket exchange, which gave a fair return to the fan (something like the Arsenal one that was linked earlier). This would prevent LP harvesting and the chance of home tickets ending up with away fans, and would minimise the availability of tickets going to touts.

2) state what constitutes “sold out”. My sense, from observing when the existing exchenge has gone live for previous games, is that the bar is currently set too high. For an exchange to work, sellers need sufficient time to upload their tickets and buyers need time to buy them.

I think that the club have cracked down on unofficial exchanges (such as NSC) a bit too early. I support the direction the club is going (stop touting, stop LP harvesting etc), but I do think it’s incumbent on them to have a fit for purpose official replacement. The current one simply isn’t.

We, as fans, should also recognise that there are some folk who hold tickets and even STs who won’t play fair, no matter what system the club puts in place - some will seek to profiteer. Those should be extended no sympathy, and the club would be doing everyone a service if they were banned.

Good summary.

 

[sully]

Out of curiosity, what leads you to conclude that "any other club in the country" allows, or at least tolerates, supporters to engage in unofficial secondary ticketing?

Perhaps because I know people who support other clubs. Even our own club did not stop us exchanging tickets between us until recently.

Does something make you think that others don’t tolerate this? I asked earlier in the thread and nobody offered any evidence of it elsewhere.

 

[drew]

Perhaps because I know people who support other clubs. Even our own club did not stop us exchanging tickets between us until recently.

Does something make you think that others don’t tolerate this? I asked earlier in the thread and nobody offered any evidence of it elsewhere.

It is illegal to pass on tickets, that has been stated many times. The club, however, like many, turn a blind eye if you are passing your ticket to a friend or family member. What you cannot do is sell your ticket, and advertising it for sale on social media literally advertises the fact you are breaking the law. Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal are three examples where they have systems in place to sell on your season ticket if you can't go. It has been known for many years that you cannot advertise to sell your ticket on NSC but maybe the club turned a blind eye to people just posting that they had tickets they couldn't use (and the financial implications were then done behind closed doors by way of PM) however, we are now selling out every game and, being in the top flight has probably seen a surge in tickets available on second hand sites hence the club are taking the stance they do.

If the club were going to operate strictly to the letter of the law then the option would probably be to have photo id on a ticket so that only the person who owns the ticket can get in and I'm not sure anyone really wants to go down that path.

 

[sydney]

I’m not having a go but you do seem to want the club to organize it’s ticketing around your particular requirements. You have been very vocal in making suggestions, all of which suit you best. I’m thinking of your opposition to loyalty points amongst other things.
Regarding your current suggestion perhaps the club just don’t want an ever expanded secondary market in home tickets where people are able to buy tickets without a commitment to attending the game. Once purchased they can then sit on the tickets whilst deciding whether to go or not and thus prevent someone else from having them. I can’t help but feel that once again you are not seeing this from other people’s point of view.

i think over the course of a season KG's situation would arise 100's of times .....in this day and age it really would not be that hard to set up and the admin charge would be negligible, just set up an official ticket exchange and sell the tickets at face value , ask people keen to pick up last minute tickets to register on the site the vendor could be limited to 3 games per seasoned perhaps be charged 10 % to go towards admin costs. , simples...........although seeing the way things are done in the UK these days i won't hold my breath.

 

[nigeyb]

Perhaps because I know people who support other clubs. Even our own club did not stop us exchanging tickets between us until recently.

Does something make you think that others don’t tolerate this? I asked earlier in the thread and nobody offered any evidence of it elsewhere.

I think Drew has answered your point above.

But, just to be clear, your original claim that...

you can’t advertise a ticket bought from the Albion, but it’s ok if you support any other club in the country.

...is not based on knowledge about every other club in the country but based on anecdotal knowledge of people you know "who support other clubs". Given it's illegal for supporters to sell tickets on then it's seems pretty clear that most clubs are obliged to take the issue seriously. As others have said, most clubs are unlikely to be bothered about informal arrangements between friends to let others have their ticket or ST, but that's completely different to advertising tickets on the open market. Remember, this all came to a head because it was clear that significant numbers of Arsenal fans were in the home areas. That's also an issue for our club, as it would be for any other club. We know this increases the chance of crowd trouble, as well as being potentially annoying or unpleasant for nearby supporters.

I'm really baffled why this is such a big issue for some supporters.

 

[Nitram]

I'm all for the club getting tough with people selling tickets to touts.
The club also needs to address a fair ticket exchange scheme for those who cannot use a ticket. Not to be used more than twice a season.
Don't have much sympathy for those who feel entitled to sell their tickets at face value to a mate/family friend. Bloody give it away as a gesture. However those moaning probably are doing this on a regular basis.

 

[Horses Arse]

Few assumptions there. Just because some can see why the club have taken the stance on this issue (ie. not 'unthinking', just a different view), don't assume that they also support everything the club does. I have had email disagreements with PB in the past on some issues but I take the view that we are better off with someone like him in charge than some of the other CEOs at other clubs!!!

We went from a fanbase of diehards of about 6/7k to a situation where the fanbase needed to support the viability of the new stadium so it would be stupid to not to expect the club to court new fans (some of which were returning from pre Withdean days (although, based on attendance at the Goldstone, still less than half of a full Amex). Do you really think the club should be treating us 'original' fans any different from those that have appeared in recent years? (The exception to this is the loyalty points scheme).

Yes, certainly some assumptions but viewing the thread those assumptions have some justification I feel. Yes, I do believe that there needs to be recognition of supporters from the Withdean era and beyond even if done informally. There were more than 7k actively supporting the club at Withdean - maybe not die hards going to every home game but supporters that went both home and away through the Gills/Withdean eras. Those season ticket holders in the championship surely need to be recognised also. We've got over 4k on the waiting list I believe purely as a result of us getting promoted - there wasn't such a list before. Why reward those people at the expense of those interested outside the PL?

I see the approach as prompting long term supporters having to give up their season tickets so that these PL fans can get a season ticket. For example no chance of keeping your kids season ticket active when they go to Uni because you'll get banned if someone else uses the ticket when they cant go. No chance of keeping your season ticket when your job will take you away for 6 months or you have to work Saturdays for a period. Therefore you have to lose out long term to PL only supporters (or at least for the duration that we are in the PL for). It doesn't affect me but it seems unreasonable and easily dealt with by common sense. Target touts making money - deal with them firmly. Speak to those long term supporters found passing tickets on and most importantly set up a functioning ticket exchange and avoid directing people to actions that could lead them to falling out of love with the club.

It surely isn't that difficult.