st georges day march for ENGLAND in brighton

[User removed 4]

Still don't see the problem.

no, you wouldnt.............. in multi racial east preston.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Apropos of nothing (sorry for using foreign words) here is a list of immigration to the UK when it was last calculated from the 2001 census. We call these facts.

Between 1991 and 2001 around 1.1m people who were born abroad moved to the UK making the total number of people born abroad but living in the UK 4m or so.

Republic of Ireland: 494,850
India: 466,416
Pakistan: 320,767
Germany: 262,276
Caribbean: 254,740
USA: 155,030
Bangladesh: 154,201
South Africa: 140,201
Kenya: 129,356
Italy: 107,002

What is noticeable about this list for me is that around one in nine of the immigrants are from Ireland. Hard to make a rational case for keeping them out.

Around 5% were from Germany - but the vast majority of these were children born to people in the British Armed Forces (so showing up as born abroad).

Those two groups alone more or less equal the total number of 'Pakis' (assuming they are defined as anyone from the sub-continent) who have moved to this country.

The US, South Africa and South America make up a very large percentage, as do those from Western Europe (see Italy at 10th on the list by itself).

So to clarify
- more 'Brits born abroad' and Irish than 'Pakis' immigrating.
- massive proportion of immigrants coming from the developed 'first' world.
- around 6% of UK population born abroad (v. 9% in Germany and Austria, 12% in the US, 24% for Australia for example)

Several (independent) surveys have been carried out since 2001 which paint a different picture. I am sceptical of the results of all such surveys but especially of those sponsored by the Government (crime, levels of unemployment, immigration, etc), which has an interest in misleading the public.

Since 2001, the UK has seen an annual net-immigration rate of 190,000 people. That means that, in the last eight years, some 1.5 million more people have entered the country than have left it. It is immaterial where the people come from: the country cannot sustain immigration at such a level.

 

[Les Biehn]

Funny how it's all the thickie right wingers who complain about immigrants taking their jobs. Learn to read and write properly and you might get a half decent job. Otherwise it's back to the competing with immigrants who are actually willing to take the shitty jobs and can't just sign on and sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle, drinking super strength lager all day.

 

[Mellotron]

no, you wouldnt.............. in multi racial east preston.

Already had someone slag me off for where I live. I've spent plenty of time in fairly multi-racial parts of England and also India.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Still don't see the problem.

The Problem is that what we are talking about is a percieved invasion of predominantly working class areas of Britain by people who have a completely different attitude towards family, work and education than the local white british population. This causes friction because migrants entering britain do not only often follow a different religious code than the locals (where religion is pretty much irrelevant these days) which will preclude youngsters from mingling and integrating (what would a Muslim father think of his daughter hanging about with the local lads?) and which therefore encourages division and suspicion, but also they have a different view of family and close living as a group which means they will congregate together in certain areas which then take on the look and feel of the subcontinent and further alienates the locals.


What I am saying is that migrants from European or North American Countries tend not to migrate for the same reasons as those from Pakistan or Bangladesh. All of the People I know from Germany, France etc. are here either because they are married to a Brit or their work has given them an opportunity to work in Britain, but socially and culturally Europeans are closer to the British than those from the subcontinent or Africa in terms of common terms of reference etc. None of the Migrants I know from Europe/North America are living in economically deprived areas or in large extended family groups. They are spread all over the UK, not concentrated in pockets and are completely integrated when it comes to British friends etc. This is NOT the same as the other cultural groups highlighted.

I bet if you bother to investigate this further that you will find that the subdivisions continue even further Indian Hindu's are pretty integrated, this is because there tends to be more money in India than Pakistan and Bangladesh so there is a greater emphasis on achievement academically so a more enthusiastic view of education etc. simularly Hindus are more relaxed about religious interraction than Muslims. An important thing to remember here is that Indian hindu's HATE Pakistani's

Black Africans and Carribeans-hate each other and the Asians more than they hate the whites. By and large they are native English speakers and have a Christian tradition so have a lot more in common with poor white people than was thought a few years back. Funnily enough though, white people I know experience more hassle from the Black community when they date a black man/woman than the other way round...although this is hardly a comprehensive study.

Basically, it's highly likely that these strained relations between cultural groups, even those that have been established in Britain for decades, will crack under the strain of a depression, whilst white liberal britain sits in front of the TV wailing "why cant we stop being horrid to each other" society will be falling apart when the various groups are competing for the few jobs and houses available. Unfortunately this is what has happened in the past...it will happen again.


If you cant see that all around you too fella....

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

i'll probably celebrate st. georges day, i like england and like being english

i won't join that march as it clearly concentrates on what is 'wrong' with england rather than what's right with it

that's the difference between the english and the scots/welsh/irish folks

 

[CHAPPERS]

marching is for spengs

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

The Problem is that what we are talking about is a percieved invasion of predominantly working class areas of Britain by people who have a completely different attitude towards family, work and education than the local white british population.

who all share the same attitude towards family, work and education. Of course.

 

[Taybha]

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

who all share the same attitude towards family, work and education. Of course.

I'm not sure that in some of these areas family, Work and Education figure very much at all.

Alls I'm saying is that in areas of social and economic deprivation in pockets around the country there is a recognised breakdown in these values among working class white britons.
I admire the strength and unity of Asian families in particular We could do with learning from them...but I think that along with that there is intolerance and a sense of superiority over the morals and behaviour of their white neighbours which causes friction. When you add to that deeply ingrained racist views going back over generations..back to the days of Empire..it is not a healthy mix.

 

[The Large One]

i'll probably celebrate st. georges day, i like england and like being english

i won't join that march as it clearly concentrates on what is 'wrong' with england rather than what's right with it

Agreed. I don't see the ideals behind this particular march as being in the tradition of St George or of England. I also don't see that the English way of life, nor English traditions or values are being undermined. And to say we're not allowed to celebrate it is, well, words fail me.

Also, to say that this event isn't a politicisation of the flag, and of England (and by that I don't mean pointing at any political party, more a political statement is being made) is just wrong.

that's the difference between the english and the scots/welsh/irish folks

Not necessarily. There are plenty of people in Scotland, Wales and Ireland who do parade on their national day. There are also people who celebrate St George's Day without the need for a march.

There are many things I would happily celebrate about England, but I'll do it in my own way for positive reasons, not because I feel paranoid or bullied by people (the so-called PC Brigade, for instance) who I'm not certain actually exist.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

So what is it about England you love Rusthall?

Now notice, I asked what you love, not what you dilsike so no silly rants about immigration.

Tell me, what is it about English culture that I should be celebrating and why I need to be a right wing bigot in order to do so?

to answer your first question RS - I love Roast pork sunday lunch....a cup of tea and ginger nut biscuits.....strawberry picking....but most of all walking the streets of Luton breathing in the atmosphere and the culture.

I wasn't disliking anything anyhow, so why bring it up ?

Secondly, I haven't told you to celebrate English culture or to be a right wing bigot anyway!!! It is your personal choice my angry little friend.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

Agreed. I don't see the ideals behind this particular march as being in the tradition of St George or of England. I also don't see that the English way of life, nor English traditions or values are being undermined. And to say we're not allowed to celebrate it is, well, words fail me.

Also, to say that this event isn't a politicisation of the flag, and of England (and by that I don't mean pointing at any political party, more a political statement is being made) is just wrong.




Not necessarily. There are plenty of people in Scotland, Wales and Ireland who do parade on their national day. There are also people who celebrate St George's Day without the need for a march.

There are many things I would happily celebrate about England, but I'll do it in my own way for positive reasons, not because I feel paranoid or bullied by people (the so-called PC Brigade, for instance) who I'm not certain actually exist.

agreed! I would like us all to have a big English love in - all sit around over a pint and some nice grub and discuss the pros and cons of being English - That is what a national day of celebration should be like.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Ginger nuts? I'd be going for Rich Tea personally - for me your credibility is now shot Rusty.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

Ginger nuts? I'd be going for Rich Tea personally - for me your credibility is now shot Rusty.

the strange thing is - I dont normally like gingers either...

 

[readingstockport]

agreed! I would like us all to have a big English love in - all sit around over a pint and some nice grub and discuss the pros and cons of being English - That is what a national day of celebration should be like.

not angry at all old bean.

And I agree with you on this post as it happens.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

The esential flaw starts with this statement

"It follows, then, that one can define one's identity as an English man or woman according to certain racial and cultural characteristics"

because it then takes that as accepted fact. It is not. I indentify myself as 'english' because I was born in England, not because I am white. Once that flawed assumption is disgarded then the entire argument fails abysmally.

I said that one CAN define one's identity according to certain racial and cultural characteristics. People CAN and people DO. I did not say that ALL people define their identity thus. You are one of those people who define your Englishness according to your place of birth. For a critical mass of people, merely being born in England is not a sufficient definition of Englishness, and that mass includes people who were born in England and who are not white. I know people, white and non-white, who were born in England but who consider themselves neither English nor British. I know people, white and non-white, who are happy to call themselves British but who could never call themselves English.
Unlike Britishness, Englishness is no mere civic identity. The English have deep racial and cultural roots. Jeremy Paxman said as much in his book, The English. Noboby would accuse Paxman of being a right-wing bigot.

 

[¤DãŃn¥ §êãGüLL¤]

Here we go again.

 

[SeagullRic]

I'll use a quote to express how I feel (can't remember who said this but they spoke sense)
" I hate what you say, but I'd defend to the last your right to say it".

 

[Dandyman]

The Problem is that what we are talking about is a percieved invasion of predominantly working class areas of Britain by people who have a completely different attitude towards family, work and education than the local white british population. This causes friction because migrants entering britain do not only often follow a different religious code than the locals (where religion is pretty much irrelevant these days) which will preclude youngsters from mingling and integrating (what would a Muslim father think of his daughter hanging about with the local lads?) and which therefore encourages division and suspicion, but also they have a different view of family and close living as a group which means they will congregate together in certain areas which then take on the look and feel of the subcontinent and further alienates the locals.


What I am saying is that migrants from European or North American Countries tend not to migrate for the same reasons as those from Pakistan or Bangladesh. All of the People I know from Germany, France etc. are here either because they are married to a Brit or their work has given them an opportunity to work in Britain, but socially and culturally Europeans are closer to the British than those from the subcontinent or Africa in terms of common terms of reference etc. None of the Migrants I know from Europe/North America are living in economically deprived areas or in large extended family groups. They are spread all over the UK, not concentrated in pockets and are completely integrated when it comes to British friends etc. This is NOT the same as the other cultural groups highlighted.

I bet if you bother to investigate this further that you will find that the subdivisions continue even further Indian Hindu's are pretty integrated, this is because there tends to be more money in India than Pakistan and Bangladesh so there is a greater emphasis on achievement academically so a more enthusiastic view of education etc. simularly Hindus are more relaxed about religious interraction than Muslims. An important thing to remember here is that Indian hindu's HATE Pakistani's

Black Africans and Carribeans-hate each other and the Asians more than they hate the whites. By and large they are native English speakers and have a Christian tradition so have a lot more in common with poor white people than was thought a few years back. Funnily enough though, white people I know experience more hassle from the Black community when they date a black man/woman than the other way round...although this is hardly a comprehensive study.

Basically, it's highly likely that these strained relations between cultural groups, even those that have been established in Britain for decades, will crack under the strain of a depression, whilst white liberal britain sits in front of the TV wailing "why cant we stop being horrid to each other" society will be falling apart when the various groups are competing for the few jobs and houses available. Unfortunately this is what has happened in the past...it will happen again.


If you cant see that all around you too fella....

All of which was said about Jews and the Irish 100 years ago...