[Film] Spolieriffic Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Discussion *SPOILERS*

[Bold Seagull]

Mmm. 'Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise.'

Very true. But we do have to remember certain aspects of the film. ANH and ESB Tarkin and Vader had both set traps so likely the STs were instructed to miss. They were afterall pretty accurate when they boarded Leia's ship.

 

[Acker79]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TA9coGLzM

 

[Triggaaar]

Very true. But we do have to remember certain aspects of the film. ANH and ESB Tarkin and Vader had both set traps so likely the STs were instructed to miss.

I'm sorry, but that's certainly not the case for the most part. ANH when they rescue Leia, they have a couple of fights with STs while Vader is off telling Tarkin that Obi-Wan is on the space station. Then Solo runs into a few dozen STs, shoots one and legs it. The others return fire, and miss. All the fighting at the point is supposed to be real. By this point Vadar and Tarkin hatch a plan to allow the falcon to leave, and track it, but the Stormtroopers aren't informed, so when Vadar kills Obi-Wan and Luke screams 'no', the STs turn and shoot at Solo, Leia (who was scheduled for execution) and Luke. They can't hit shit.

The only bit I remember in EST is after Boba Fett has taken Solo, and the STs are chasing Lando, Leia, Chewy & droids, while Vadar is fighting Luke. Again there's no suggestion any of them need to be kept alive, and the STs weren't told to miss. Some of the shooting is worse than Brighton's.

 

[Easy 10]

 

[Triggaaar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TA9coGLzM

Lame.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'm sorry, but that's certainly not the case for the most part. ANH when they rescue Leia, they have a couple of fights with STs while Vader is off telling Tarkin that Obi-Wan is on the space station. Then Solo runs into a few dozen STs, shoots one and legs it. The others return fire, and miss. All the fighting at the point is supposed to be real. By this point Vadar and Tarkin hatch a plan to allow the falcon to leave, and track it, but the Stormtroopers aren't informed, so when Vadar kills Obi-Wan and Luke screams 'no', the STs turn and shoot at Solo, Leia (who was scheduled for execution) and Luke. They can't hit shit.

The only bit I remember in EST is after Boba Fett has taken Solo, and the STs are chasing Lando, Leia, Chewy & droids, while Vadar is fighting Luke. Again there's no suggestion any of them need to be kept alive, and the STs weren't told to miss. Some of the shooting is worse than Brighton's.

I don't buy that. They've failed to get the base location out of Leia. They know that the MF is the ship that escaped Tatooine. The only surprising thing for DV is that he senses Obi Wan's presence, the plan to put a tracker on the ship and let Leia escape could have been hatched the moment they got caught in the tractor beam.

As for EST, the plan was still that Leia and Chewy were to be taken to DV's ship. None of the STs would have known what was going on between DV and Luke. As far as all the imperial forces were concerned, Leia and Chewy were still prisoners to be kept alive.

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't buy that. They've failed to get the base location out of Leia. They know that the MF is the ship that escaped Tatooine. The only surprising thing for DV is that he senses Obi Wan's presence, the plan to put a tracker on the ship and let Leia escape could have been hatched the moment they got caught in the tractor beam.

Even if you're right, they wouldn't be communicating this to all STs on the Death Star.

As for EST, the plan was still that Leia and Chewy were to be taken to DV's ship. None of the STs would have known what was going on between DV and Luke. As far as all the imperial forces were concerned, Leia and Chewy were still prisoners to be kept alive.

As soon as Lando's guards took the STs prisoner, it was clear Leia and Chewy were no longer prisoners, they had guns and were shooting.

The only time in SW the STs weren't supposed to be killing the main characters is when they were told to set their weapons to stun. If they had wanted to take Leia and Chewy prisoner again on Cloud City, that's what they'd have done.

The simple fact is that the main characters needed to appear to be in peril, whilst not dying. The solution for the directors was to have the STs shoot at them a lot, and narrowly miss a lot. Pretending the STs were all in on the plan to let them escape is just fans pretending there's nothing wrong with their favourite films.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'm sorry, but that's certainly not the case for the most part. ANH when they rescue Leia, they have a couple of fights with STs while Vader is off telling Tarkin that Obi-Wan is on the space station. Then Solo runs into a few dozen STs, shoots one and legs it. The others return fire, and miss. All the fighting at the point is supposed to be real. By this point Vadar and Tarkin hatch a plan to allow the falcon to leave, and track it, but the Stormtroopers aren't informed, so when Vadar kills Obi-Wan and Luke screams 'no', the STs turn and shoot at Solo, Leia (who was scheduled for execution) and Luke. They can't hit shit..

So following on from my post above, I think that once Tarkin and Vader realise the plot to rescue the princess, they can make their plan. Tarkin specifically says 'he' must not be allowed to escape. Vader says 'escape is not his plan'. In that moment the two of them can form their plan for A) beacon on the MF, B) Vader to face Obi Wan. That is just as the shoot out in the detention level starts. the script:

Darth Vader paces the room as Governor Tarkin sits at the
far end of the conference table.

VADER
He is here...

TARKIN
Obi-Wan Kenobi! What makes you think
so?

VADER
A tremor in the Force. The last time
I felt it was in the presence of my
old master.

TARKIN
Surely he must be dead by now.

VADER
Don't underestimate the power of the
Force.

TARKIN
The Jedi are extinct, their fire has
gone out of the universe. You, my
friend, are all that's left of their
religion.

There is a quiet buzz on the comlink.

TARKIN
Yes.

INTERCOM VOICE
Governor Tarkin, we have an emergency
alert in detention block A A-twenty-
three.

TARKIN
The princess! Put all sections on
alert!

VADER
Obi-Wan is here. The Force is with
him.

TARKIN
If you're right, he must not be
allowed to escape.

VADER
Escape is not his plan. I must face
him alone.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Even if you're right, they wouldn't be communicating this to all STs on the Death Star.

Why not? We know they have comms in their headsets. Presumably they have channels for groups, platoons, and companies but not reason an order can't be passed to all at once. We know this from Order66.

 

[Triggaaar]

So following on from my post above, I think that once Tarkin and Vader realise the plot to rescue the princess, they can make their plan. Tarkin specifically says 'he' must not be allowed to escape. Vader says 'escape is not his plan'. In that moment the two of them can form their plan for A) beacon on the MF, B) Vader to face Obi Wan. That is just as the shoot out in the detention level starts.

By the time Vadar and Tarkin are chatting our heroes have already had a couple of fights with STs. Tarkin is surprised to hear that Leia has been taken, he wasn't expecting it. He is adamant that Obi-Wan doesn't escape. You say they can form their plan 'in that moment', but we see their whole conversation (from where you've quoted) and we see Vadar leave the room. The plan would have had to have happened earlier, before they knew Obi-Wan was on board. But as I've said, it's a bit daft to imagine they told all the STs on the space station to shoot back at people but not hit them. It's laughable. You can see that those that do meet up with our heroes are surprised, often assuming they're not enemies to start with.

 

[Triggaaar]

Why not? We know they have comms in their headsets. Presumably they have channels for groups, platoons, and companies but not reason an order can't be passed to all at once.

Yes of course they have comms, the point is it would be stupid to tell them all.

We know this from Order66.

I've never seen anyone use the prequels to justify what happened in the originals before.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Very true. But we do have to remember certain aspects of the film. ANH and ESB Tarkin and Vader had both set traps so likely the STs were instructed to miss. They were afterall pretty accurate when they boarded Leia's ship.

Why would they not have just let them go to the MF unhindered if that was the plan?

Seems pretty risky to fire at someone you want to escape

 

[Bold Seagull]

Why would they not have just let them go to the MF unhindered if that was the plan?

Seems pretty risky to fire at someone you want to escape

I think you have to have the illusion they have genuinely escaped, otherwise they would realise they were tracked and not go to the base. Leia suspected it, what Tarkin and Vader didn't know is that they had the plans with them and in those plans was a hidden weakness.

The dialogue after the MF hits hyperspace is:

Darth Vader strides into the control room, where Tarkin is
watching the huge view screen. A sea of stars is before him.

TARKIN
Are they away?

VADER
They have just made the jump into
hyperspace.

TARKIN
You're sure the homing beacon is
secure aboard their ship? I'm taking
an awful risk, Vader. This had better
work.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Yes of course they have comms, the point is it would be stupid to tell them all.

Why? You've got a plan to finally destroy the rebellion, and if their escape is prevented they lose that chance. As soon as you came up with it, you'd tell everyone not to kill the rebels trying to escape, and allow their progress toward their ship.

Vader: how come the ship hasn't left yet with the beacon on it?
ST: we shot the rebels.
Vader: did no one tell you they were to be allowed to escape?
ST: no.
Vader: damn it, we must set up better comms.

 

[Triggaaar]

Why? You've got a plan to finally destroy the rebellion, and if their escape is prevented they lose that chance. As soon as you came up with it, you'd tell everyone not to kill the rebels trying to escape, and allow their progress toward their ship.

No, if they really did think that destroying the rebels relied on tracking Leia's escape, they'd have let her escape without the risk of STs shooting them, rather that have loads of them (plenty of whom were being shot, making it more likely their shots would go off target) shoot and narrowly miss. It would have been so much easier to have fewer STs around. They could have just gone to listen to a speech by a glorious leader, and the rebels could have escaped without being shot or thinking anything was up.

It's like you've not seen the films for a long time. Tarkin is not happy to learn that Leia has escaped. The guards were not expecting Solo and Luke to turn up in ST outfits. They're trained soldiers, they've not all had training in acting to fool the enemy. It's not The Truman Show.

 

[Bold Seagull]

No, if they really did think that destroying the rebels relied on tracking Leia's escape, they'd have let her escape without the risk of STs shooting them, rather that have loads of them (plenty of whom were being shot, making it more likely their shots would go off target) shoot and narrowly miss. It would have been so much easier to have fewer STs around. They could have just gone to listen to a speech by a glorious leader, and the rebels could have escaped without being shot or thinking anything was up.

It's like you've not seen the films for a long time. Tarkin is not happy to learn that Leia has escaped. The guards were not expecting Solo and Luke to turn up in ST outfits. They're trained soldiers, they've not all had training in acting to fool the enemy. It's not The Truman Show.

We never know how Tarkin reacts to her escape, I've posted the Tarkin dialogue, he only hears there is an emergency alert in the detention block (doesn't know she's escaped at that point). Next time we see him he's commenting to Vader that he hopes his plan works given the risk.

There are some funny moments in the escape of course, Han and Chewy chasing down a load of STs only to then be confronted by a load more. I only wish we didn't have to suffer Lucas's rehashing of the original films when he added so much crap that was completely unnecessary.

What I am of course arguing for is for the suspension of belief. Given many other plot anomalies in the SW films, I feel I can buy into STs being crack snipers one minute, couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo the next through the narrative that we have. A plan existed, it is plausible their escape was made easy by intent rather than incompetence.

 

[Easy 10]

[yt]b2zZFtq13c4[/yt]

I knew this pitch meeting would be a cracker

 

[Iggle Piggle]

[yt]b2zZFtq13c4[/yt]

I knew this pitch meeting would be a cracker

I do like the Pitch meetings. They've recently uploaded a Star Wars holiday special one as well.

 

[Triggaaar]

We never know how Tarkin reacts to her escape, I've posted the Tarkin dialogue, he only hears there is an emergency alert in the detention block (doesn't know she's escaped at that point).

Fair enough, but he still looks concerned about the emergency. If he didn't want a chance of them being shot, he'd be better saying something like 'I'll deal with this personally' rather than putting everyone on alert.

Next time we see him he's commenting to Vader that he hopes his plan works given the risk.

Yes, after Vader has left the room and the rebels have flown off. But they didn't do any more plan hatching in the meeting we saw.

There are some funny moments in the escape of course, Han and Chewy chasing down a load of STs only to then be confronted by a load more.

Yes I mentioned that. They weren't all standing there with orders not to shoot him, yet they missed. You are of course welcome to disagree, but I don't think it makes sense.

What I am of course arguing for is for the suspension of belief. Given many other plot anomalies in the SW films, I feel I can buy into STs being crack snipers one minute, couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo the next through the narrative that we have. A plan existed, it is plausible their escape was made easy by intent rather than incompetence.

I don't mind it when they're shooting at Luke. He's difficult to hit, because he's strong with the force (and Vadar has difficulty shooting him in the battle of Yavin). Although Leia 'has it too', at that stage she's not aware, and she's not difficult to hit at the start of the film, when she's stunned.

It doesn't ruin the films for me, but then I'm also willing to overlook a lot of the issues in the later films. What I find odd is people complaining about issues in the later films while pretending their weren't also issues with the originals. Of course there were.

 

[Acker79]

[yt]b2zZFtq13c4[/yt]

I knew this pitch meeting would be a cracker

It's a shame I can only give one thumbs up