Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Bozza]

Very much so. I wish train drivers and guards could have grilled them rather than uneducated (on this matter) MPs - they wouldn't have got away with deflection and we could have pinned them down. The importance of having a guard safely dispatch a train has barely been mentioned.

I'm not sure it matters when the other side are repeatedly unable to answer why DOO operates elsewhere and no one has been shouting "UNSAFE" from the rooftops anytime previously. The union repeatedly failed to put that right today when given the opportunity. Piss poor.

 

[Bozza]

I also wonder if we'll now also see more "sickness" happening which would disrupt the new timetable. That would just be an unfortunate coincidence of course.

 

[The Albion Roar]

I don't know what's more depressing - the unimpressive performance from Mick Cash, the useless off point questions or the slimy deflective answers from GTR.

I don't suppose it helps industrial relations nor future negotiations to get into a public playground spat within Parliament - on either side. And these committees are there to be fact-finders first, rather than specifically blame-layers.

It's the tone of questioning to any given side that cheesed me off. Karl McCartney (the ginger bloke on the left hand side of the committee) loaded his questions to blame the unions, then asked meaningless questions of GTR.

Louise Ellman, the chair of the committee, was most impressive. She wanted to nail Mick Cash down to promising to get around the table, and - more pertinently - Charles Horton down to knowing if and when there would be a guaranteed improvement to the rail services. He (Horton) couldn't give it.

 

[DFL JCL]

I agree, the chair seemed impartial as well as the lady on the right, The others very much less so. This industrial action seems to be a smoke screen for the far more serious underlying issues that Southen seem inept to address.

 

[Easy 10]

I guess its too early to know how much this omnishambles will affect the matchday service once the season kicks off. Will they still actually be running the additional services ? Wonder if Paul Barber has been in touch with SASTA about it...

Hopefully Park & Ride will be able to cope with the additional numbers, because this currently has all the ingredients for a complete fiasco every matchday if (as seems likely) SASTA are still in this mess come August.

 

[The Albion Roar]

I guess its too early to know how much this omnishambles will affect the matchday service once the season kicks off. Will they still actually be running the additional services ? Wonder if Paul Barber has been in touch with SASTA about it...

Hopefully Park & Ride will be able to cope with the additional numbers, because this currently has all the ingredients for a complete fiasco every matchday if (as seems likely) SASTA are still in this mess come August.

The first test is on 31 July for the game v Lazio.

Then 9 Aug for the home game with Colchester. Admittedly, Colchester may not bring many fans, but those who do come will still be delayed.

The real clusterf*ck will be the game on Friday 12 Aug v Forest.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The first test is on 31 July for the game v Lazio.

Then 9 Aug for the home game with Colchester. Admittedly, Colchester may not bring many fans, but those who do come will still be delayed.

The real clusterf*ck will be the game on Friday 12 Aug v Forest.

Feel really sorry for the club. They did everything by the book, heavily and responsibly promoted sustainable modes of transport to Falmer, Now that all gets blown out of the water by SASTA. Doubt even Paul Barber will be able to work his magic on this one, seeing as how all of our local MPs who have expressed an interest have been thus far powerless to apply enough pressure to get this abysmally failing franchise to work in the interests of its customers and its staff. It's not looking good for the start of the season. Maybe the club should appeal to the League to reschedule all of the Amex home games for Saturday 3pm until this shit gets sorted, and override Sky. At least it would give 25K people a sporting chance of getting to the game and getting home again.

 

[Deadly Danson]

I'm not sure it matters when the other side are repeatedly unable to answer why DOO operates elsewhere and no one has been shouting "UNSAFE" from the rooftops anytime previously. The union repeatedly failed to put that right today when given the opportunity. Piss poor.

To be honest I think you're right. I don't think the union put on a great show today and I think they have been negligent in the past in accepting DOO. I doubt anyone would be able to argue that the SAFEST method of dispatch is a guard who can stand away from the train, see with peripheral vision, hear what is going on and speak and call out to passengers rather than a driver with up to 24 doors on CCTV to look at (the RSSB clearly state it is safer) - it's just whether people want to accept that DOO will suffice. The unions should be able to argue that in this day and age that it doesn't suffice and explain in detail why but I don't think they articulate this very well. And as I've said on many occasions just because a method of dispatch has operated relatively safely for a while doesn't mean that it is intrinsically the SAFEST way of running a 21st century rail service - especially now that trains can carry up to 1700 passengers.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Feel really sorry for the club. They did everything by the book, heavily and responsibly promoted sustainable modes of transport to Falmer, Now that all gets blown out of the water by SASTA. Doubt even Paul Barber will be able to work his magic on this one, seeing as how all of our local MPs who have expressed an interest have been thus far powerless to apply enough pressure to get this abysmally failing franchise to work in the interests of its customers and its staff. It's not looking good for the start of the season. Maybe the club should appeal to the League to reschedule all of the Amex home games for Saturday 3pm until this shit gets sorted, and override Sky. At least it would give 25K people a sporting chance of getting to the game and getting home again.

I think that's a decent idea. Any evening game from now on will be a disaster. SASTA rely on rest day working to run even the most basic evening matchday service and they can't even run a normal service at the moment. I just don't see how they can possibly persuade enough drivers and guards to work enough additional trains in the current climate.

 

[Bozza]

To be honest I think you're right. I don't think the union put on a great show today and I think they have been negligent in the past in accepting DOO. I doubt anyone would be able to argue that the SAFEST method of dispatch is a guard who can stand away from the train, see with peripheral vision, hear what is going on and speak and call out to passengers rather than a driver with up to 24 doors on CCTV to look at (the RSSB clearly state it is safer) - it's just whether people want to accept that DOO will suffice. The unions should be able to argue that in this day and age that it doesn't suffice and explain in detail why but I don't think they articulate this very well. And as I've said on many occasions just because a method of dispatch has operated relatively safely for a while doesn't mean that it is intrinsically the SAFEST way of running a 21st century rail service - especially now that trains can carry up to 1700 passengers.

The SAFEST would be to have a guard at each and every door of the train so that there is greater assurance that everyone is safely inside/outside the train at the point in time that the doors close.

I lie. That wouldn't be the SAFEST, but it would be safer. The point is that you can keep adding additional measures that will deliver marginal safety improvements. When do you stop though? When is something deemed safe enough?

 

[Rugrat]

it's just whether people want to accept that DOO will suffice. The unions should be able to argue that in this day and age that it doesn't suffice and explain in detail why but I don't think they articulate this very well.

Tell you what I'm going to take a huge risk and say I am OK with DOO. Call me irresponsible but I'm prepared to take the risk, and maybe anyone unwilling to do so can find an alternative method of transport.

But, not only don't I get a choice but there are now no trains that I can actually get on

 

[Bozza]

Tell you what I'm going to take a huge risk and say I am OK with DOO. Call me irresponsible but I'm prepared to take the risk, and maybe anyone unwilling to do so can find an alternative method of transport.

But, not only don't I get a choice but there are now no trains that I can actually get on

I wonder what the commuters who have been completely shafted recently would choose...

1) Having a guard close the doors on each train, but numerous delays, cancellations, short trains and/or reduced service.
2) Taking a bit more personal responsibility when getting on and off trains, but a fuller and more reliable service.

 

[Deadly Danson]

The SAFEST would be to have a guard at each and every door of the train so that there is greater assurance that everyone is safely inside/outside the train at the point in time that the doors close.

I lie. That wouldn't be the SAFEST, but it would be safer. The point is that you can keep adding additional measures that will deliver marginal safety improvements. When do you stop though? When is something deemed safe enough?

And that's the nub of the issue. Everyone will have their own ideas of the minimum safety standards they are happy with whilst travelling on a train. Some may be happy to take the risk of one person in charge of 1700 people and that one person closing the doors via CCTV, some may only be happy with one person per carriage closing the doors on just that carriage. Who's to say where the balance lies? Personally I feel one safety critically trained guard who is responsible for doors and one driver is about right given there will always be a pressure to save as much money as possible - it all boils down to how much of a risk the passengers and operating companies are willing to accept.

 

[Hotchilidog]

The SAFEST would be to have a guard at each and every door of the train so that there is greater assurance that everyone is safely inside/outside the train at the point in time that the doors close.

I lie. That wouldn't be the SAFEST, but it would be safer. The point is that you can keep adding additional measures that will deliver marginal safety improvements. When do you stop though? When is something deemed safe enough?

I hardly think one qualified guard is really overdoing it though.

The simple heart of hte current problems is that the train company do not have enough staff to run the timetable without relying on overtime, shift swapping or rest day working. They are being paid by the tax payer to run these train and the government do not seem to be too fussed whether they do or not vbecause this is another opportunity to bash union members.

By any stretch of the imagination SASTA have FAILED completely to provide not only the service they are contracted to but even anything remotely appraoching half the service they are obliged to. It is astonishing that they are allowed to get away with this. They clearly lack the competence to run this service and they need to go.

 

[beorhthelm]

Tell you what I'm going to take a huge risk and say I am OK with DOO.

im OK with it too. i'd prefer there to be a guard, but im really not too fussed about whether they are involved in dispatch of the train or not. and it would be a benefit to have them more focused on customer assistance. alas the union fear (with good reason) the on board host will fade away and their membership drop. the driver dont want the responsibility, though other drivers on many DOO services seem to do it fine.

i was literally thinking the same as Bozza above (safer to have a guard per carriage) but thought better of posting that. it does highlight the problem for the union and members, the safety case for guards is a bit weak and the assistance angle is covered by the plan to retain the staff. so we're left with hyperbole and vague predictions, while the passengers suffer from poor service.

 

[Rugrat]

I wonder what the commuters who have been completely shafted recently would choose...

1) Having a guard close the doors on each train, but numerous delays, cancellations, short trains and/or reduced service.
2) Taking a bit more personal responsibility when getting on and off trains, but a fuller and more reliable service.

I once dared to get on a train with no guard or driver. But that's different of course even though I don't know why as it seems the argument is about getting on and off and not the actual driving bit

 

[Bozza]

I hardly think one qualified guard is really overdoing it though.

The simple heart of hte current problems is that the train company do not have enough staff to run the timetable without relying on overtime, shift swapping or rest day working. They are being paid by the tax payer to run these train and the government do not seem to be too fussed whether they do or not vbecause this is another opportunity to bash union members.

By any stretch of the imagination SASTA have FAILED completely to provide not only the service they are contracted to but even anything remotely appraoching half the service they are obliged to. It is astonishing that they are allowed to get away with this. They clearly lack the competence to run this service and they need to go.

Maybe. One of the things I took from this morning's session was that it is appears to be commonplace across the rail industry for there to be a reliance on people working non-core hours in order to fulfil all timetabled services, and that SASTA's setup typifies that.

I clearly do not have any personal industry experience to know whether that is correct or not, but it didn't seem to be challenged at all.

The SASTA executives also repeatedly spoke about the franchise they inherited coming with an unexpected staff shortage. The panel were quite right in suggesting a degree of poor performance on behalf of SASTA around this, but surely the wider industry has an obligation to ensure that franchise handovers are as smooth as possible, limiting the impact on passengers.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Maybe. One of the things I took from this morning's session was that it is appears to be commonplace across the rail industry for there to be a reliance on people working non-core hours in order to fulfil all timetabled services, and that SASTA's setup typifies that.

I clearly do not have any personal industry experience to know whether that is correct or not, but it didn't seem to be challenged at all.

The SASTA executives also repeatedly spoke about the franchise they inherited coming with an unexpected staff shortage. The panel were quite right in suggesting a degree of poor performance on behalf of SASTA around this, but surely the wider industry has an obligation to ensure that franchise handovers are as smooth as possible, limiting the impact on passengers.

Didn't Govia run the previous franchise as well?

 

[Frutos]

I wonder what the commuters who have been completely shafted recently would choose...

1) Having a guard close the doors on each train, but numerous delays, cancellations, short trains and/or reduced service.
2) Taking a bit more personal responsibility when getting on and off trains, but a fuller and more reliable service.

Option 2, please.

 

[The Albion Roar]

im OK with it too. i'd prefer there to be a guard, but im really not too fussed about whether they are involved in dispatch of the train or not. and it would be a benefit to have them more focused on customer assistance. alas the union fear (with good reason) the on board host will fade away and their membership drop. the driver dont want the responsibility, though other drivers on many DOO services seem to do it fine.

i was literally thinking the same as Bozza above but thought better of posting that. it does highlight the problem for the union and members, the safety case for guards is a bit weak and the assistance angle is covered by the plan to retain the staff. so we're left with hyperbole and vague predictions, while the passengers suffer from poor service.

You're trying to equate 'poor service' with 'industrial dispute'.

The poor service comes from the fact that Southern have been, and are, arbitrarily cancelling trains, often citing 'lack of train crew'. They are then using 'staff sickness' as a means of explaining that 'lack of train crew', when the truth, as admitted by Southern in Parliament today, and many times previously, is that they do not employ enough people.

Charles Horton said there was 'compelling evidence' that staff sickness was being used as unofficial industrial action; a claim he couldn't back up when challenged this morning (aside from saying that the figures were 'unusual'), nor did he have any information as to the nature of staff sickness. So rather than enforce the company's obligation of a duty of care, he instead dismissed it as 'industrial action'. Interesting mindset.

Meanwhile, the drivers and conductors, who are not on strike nor taking industrial action on the vast majority of days, are doing their best to run a service, only to have unnecessary upheaval heaped upon themselves and passengers at no notice. The unions worrying about falling membership is a side issue, which the govnerment and SASTA are trying to put front and centre.

None of which counters the fact that even if the unions and SASTA reached an agreeement today, the shortfall in the numbers of staff employed by GTR will still be a problem.