Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Excellent news. So everyone can go back to work now then yeah? After all, that was what these strikes were about wasn't it?

DOO Trains Declared Safe By Rail Safety Watchdog

I'll go by what the drivers confirm is their view of the full length of the platform, thanks very much. After all, at's not going to be anybody else up in court on a life/career-changing criminal charge whenever something very nasty happens while they're pulling out of a station and being forced to look at both the track/signals in front of the train plus the inevitable last-second shenanigans on the platform behind them. Disgusting state of affairs by a company driven purely by profit. And a complete dereliction of duty by government and the myriad layers of publicly-funded regulators who's sole raison d'etre is supposedly to protect the likes of us from the likes of them.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Excellent news. So everyone can go back to work now then yeah? After all, that was what these strikes were about wasn't it?

DOO Trains Declared Safe By Rail Safety Watchdog

ASLEF's reponse to ORR report

5 Jan 2017
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, today responded to the ORR report on DOO. Mick said: ‘Despite what Southern Railways is disingenuously claiming, the report from the Office of Rail and Road does not give driver only operation a clean bill of health. It doesn’t say it is safe, merely that it can be safe.
‘You will notice that Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways, is careful to qualify his remarks and say “with suitable equipment, proper procedures, and competent staff in place” it can be a method of working. And, indeed, Ian goes on to say that the ORR has made a long list of recommendations for further improvements because they fear it is not safe. Those recommendations, the company concedes, are not yet in place.
‘The ORR says, on visibility [point 8] that “not all stations meet this requirement”. It also says [point 11] that it has identified stations that suffer from dangerous overcrowding and “the viewing corridor will be difficult for the driver to observe and carry out the train safety check”.
‘The company seems to expect drivers to operate trains which it knows are unsafe –because it concedes the work the ORR wants done has not yet been completed –which proves, yet again, that this is all about putting profit before passenger safety.
‘The truth is that passengers, every time they are asked, want a second safety-critical person on their trains. On board to help the elderly, the young, and the disabled. The company, which doesn’t seem to care what passengers to think, want to take us one step closer to losing that second role.’
Mick added: ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.
‘The industry’s approach is also spectacularly inconsistent. New rolling stock on four more franchises – Great Western, East Coast, Greater Anglia and TransPennine Express – has been procured with no provision for DOO. Because they know it’s not safe.’

 

[Ernest]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-sussex-38511649

The first blink?

Do you mean 'the kid from Madrid' ?

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I'll go by what the drivers confirm is their view of the full length of the platform, thanks very much. After all, at's not going to be anybody else up in court on a life/career-changing criminal charge whenever something very nasty happens while they're pulling out of a station and being forced to look at both the track/signals in front of the train plus the inevitable last-second shenanigans on the platform behind them. Disgusting state of affairs by a company driven purely by profit. And a complete dereliction of duty by government and the myriad layers of publicly-funded regulators who's sole raison d'etre is supposedly to protect the likes of us from the likes of them.

So, the rail safety watchdog or whatever they are, are what?

Incompetent?

Telling lies?

In the Govt's pay / pocket?

Not Important?

What would you have said if they supported the Union's position? Surely, IF they are relevant and independent then what they say has to be taken on board?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

So, the rail safety watchdog or whatever they are, are what?

Whatever they are, the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) is not independent.

For example, Charles Horton, Chief Executive Officer, Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd is a non-executive board member.

Sake!

 

[beorhthelm]

Mick added: ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.

Mick should travel on the Thameslink network and count the number of staff at stations on the Wimbledon loop other than Sutton and Wimbledon, and stations between Haywards Heath and Brighton.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Whatever they are, the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) is not independent.

For example, Charles Horton, Chief Executive Officer, Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd is a non-executive board member.

Sake!

So, that's the same group that Ian Prosser (HM Chief Inspector of Railways) works for?

And he's effectively under the influence of the rail companies?

 

[beorhthelm]

So, that's the same group that Ian Prosser (HM Chief Inspector of Railways) works for?

he's under Office of Rail and Road, a different group. it is they that made the statment, not the RSSB. they both view DOO as safe with qualifications, though they cant be trusted, only the union can be.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

he's under Office of Rail and Road, a different group. it is they that made the statment, not the RSSB.

So, are the Office or Road and Road (shit name) independent and competent? If so, why isn't their report the end of the matter*?

* once SASTA make the improvements agreed.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

So, that's the same group that Ian Prosser (HM Chief Inspector of Railways) works for?

And he's effectively under the influence of the rail companies?

Just one more eunuch rail regulator milking the public purse while turning a blind eye to the criminally dangerous overcrowding of trains and platforms that the hard-working frontline staff have to deal with on a daily basis while being simultaneously abused by their employers and by their customers. Disgusting state of affairs on every level.

 

[Arthur]

This thread is like Groundhog Day now.

DOO is safe!
No it's not!
But the watchdog says it is!
The watchdog is bent!
Southern are shit!
ASLEF/RMT are workshy wankers!
**** you DfT!

And repeat for 600 pages....

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

only the union can be.

Nope. They spout just as much shit these days as well. Esp when they says the public are on their side.

No they ****ing aint. Apart from one I know but he is in Berlin so that doesn't count.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Just one more eunuch rail regulator milking the public purse while turning a blind eye to the criminally dangerous overcrowding of trains and platforms that the hard-working frontline staff have to deal with on a daily basis while being simultaneously abused by their employers and by their customers. Disgusting state of affairs on every level.

Ok, so they're criminally incompetent?

Got it.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

This thread is like Groundhog Day now.

DOO is safe!
No it's not!
But the watchdog says it is!
The watchdog is bent!
Southern are shit!
ASLEF/RMT are workshy wankers!
**** you DfT!

And repeat for 600 pages....

For sure. But in the end it's down to government to slap that shit down. Or openly admit they don't give a toss about the electorate and are milking the public purse to further their own personal financial agenda. Who'd have thought eh?

 

[AK74]

RMT accepts to hold direct talks with the government:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...il-rmt-agrees-to-direct-talks-with-government

I'm not holding my breath for a breakthrough in the deadlock.

 

[Audax]

So, the rail safety watchdog or whatever they are, are what?

Incompetent?

Telling lies?

In the Govt's pay / pocket?

Not Important?

What would you have said if they supported the Union's position? Surely, IF they are relevant and independent then what they say has to be taken on board?

I think, for both of you, take a step back and actually have a look at the facts without your blinders on. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and in this specific instance I think that ASLEF have hit the nail on the head: the ORR report is clear that DOO can be safe on the Southern network, but that there are clear areas that are deficient and need to be remedied - areas that have not yet been remedied, and therefore make DOO unsafe (or, if we want to split hairs, "less safe than it can be") in the circumstances that currently hold.

I think the unions are (both ASLEF and the RMT) taking a far more hardline approach on this than they should, but by the same token there is a large enough element of truth in the stance they've taken - and that element is supported by the ORR report. Likewise, Southern/DfT have taken a far more hardline approach than they should, but also have a substantial element of truth in the stance they've taken ... and that element is supported by the ORR report.

Ultimately ... my thoughts are that the ASLEF and RMT action is (more or less) justified until such time as Southern can show that they have implemented DOO in full. And that means ensuring that the additional work the ORR has recommended is fully implemented before they start actually using DOO.

 

[Deadly Danson]

I have today had it confirmed to me directly by my manager that any train can now leave without an OBS without any exceptional circumstances at all. Southern can do what they like. And if I'm driving one of the increasing numbers of trains without an OBS and there is a wheelchair waiting I am to leave them behind. Modernisation my arse.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

I think, for both of you, take a step back and actually have a look at the facts without your blinders on. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and in this specific instance I think that ASLEF have hit the nail on the head: the ORR report is clear that DOO can be safe on the Southern network, but that there are clear areas that are deficient and need to be remedied - areas that have not yet been remedied, and therefore make DOO unsafe (or, if we want to split hairs, "less safe than it can be") in the circumstances that currently hold.

I think the unions are (both ASLEF and the RMT) taking a far more hardline approach on this than they should, but by the same token there is a large enough element of truth in the stance they've taken - and that element is supported by the ORR report. Likewise, Southern/DfT have taken a far more hardline approach than they should, but also have a substantial element of truth in the stance they've taken ... and that element is supported by the ORR report.

Ultimately ... my thoughts are that the ASLEF and RMT action is (more or less) justified until such time as Southern can show that they have implemented DOO in full. And that means ensuring that the additional work the ORR has recommended is fully implemented before they start actually using DOO.

Perfectly put. DOO is safe but you need the technology, investment and staff for it to be so. And I acknowledge its not there. As a result of DOO some jobs will be phased out, its only natural. My argument with the button pressers is that they can see that so they are taking action now. Its job protectionism pure and simple as we move towards OBS, I agree there needs to be a second person also. As for the drivers well they are the poor sods that have to operate in these conditions and to a point I understand the strikes but I still feel they should get a PR guru to get into the media so they DONT have to A) strike or B) withdraw their overtime - it must be annoying them as no more double bubble. Of course their Union leader will be a six figure fat cat salary so he doesn't care. Some are more equal than others after all.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

I have today had it confirmed to me directly by my manager that any train can now leave without an OBS without any exceptional circumstances at all. Southern can do what they like. And if I'm driving one of the increasing numbers of trains without an OBS and there is a wheelchair waiting I am to leave them behind. Modernisation my arse.

I know we have our differences but that is frankly shit. As in shit by Southern not by you.

 

[pb21]

Though this was interesting and worth posting (from the xmas Private Eye)