Something For Nothing!

[beorhthelm]

Way, way out. Lazy tabloid-fed junk.

Take a look at this graph. It shows debt as % of GDP since labour came to power in 1997. Up until 2008 when the global financial crisis kicked off labour kept debt levels down below that of the previous tory government.

funny how people pull up that graph and ignore the trajectory from 2002-2008, which was projected for 40-45% by 2012 at the time. with an increasing economy that should have been going the other way. considering this is a period when off balance sheet PFI deals where being driven hard, so you have to conclude an awful lot of spending was increasing out of control.

 

[kevtherev]

To be fare, this is a Brighton and Hove Albion board. The majority of opinion was never going to be any different, I mean it was this area that had the first Green MP. Nothing wrong with that, but Tory policies were never going to go down well, with most of the left wing pc brigade on here, were they

 

[HovaGirl]

That's the type of blind dogma that makes me despair. BOTH parties are full of hypocritical, manipulative, self serving liars, cheats and bullies.

There are idiots on the left (Prescott, Heffer) and the right (Tebbitt, Gove). None are deserving of public office but no one of greater intellect or ability wants the job.

Because the papers or opposition spin-doctors will trash them. Hence, we only have the dregs of political society, these days.

 

[HovaGirl]

To be fare, this is a Brighton and Hove Albion board. The majority of opinion was never going to be any different, I mean it was this area that had the first Green MP. Nothing wrong with that, but Tory policies were never going to go down well, with most of the left wing pc brigade on here, were they

True. This is a very Left-wing forum!

 

[wellquickwoody]

Floored or flawed? I'm glad you're not in charge of literacy for the welfare scroungers.

It's not a "floored idea" it's a disgraceful abdication of responsibility by a government stuffed with millionaires and old Etonians who choose to blame the unemployed rather than their billionaire chums for the shit state we're in.

Historically the Tories are the party of " me first" and balls to everyone else. They can't bear the thought of some poor twats at the bottom scratching by with a few pounds that THEY had to give them. It's always easier to kick the poorest and least well able to defend themselves that take on their chums in the city or in the corporate C suite.

After all...welfare claimants don't tend to pop up on the Abingdon or Henley cocktail circuit and they don't have massive donor status at number 10.

Tories. Disgusting *******s.

What a sad, small minded, envious little man you must be. 'That nasty leader of industry/government/manager (or anyone further up the food chain than me) is a waxxer, ner ner ner!'

 

[Seagull on the wing]

It's going to be for 30 hours a week so not only will they be earning less than the minimum wage, they will not be able to actively find full time jobs during those hours.

Yes,but why should someone sit at home living on your tax money...if nothing it will give the Jeremy Kyle watchers of this country work experience instead of sitting at home drinking Cheap Cider and Lagers,smoking and knocking out children for more benefits.
They are being given 10 hours a week looking for full time work. The trouble with some of todays society they expect something for nothing and expect others to pay for it.
It's a terrific idea only trouble being that it will not come in for a while yet.

 

[Nibble]

Yes,but why should someone sit at home living on your tax money...if nothing it will give the Jeremy Kyle watchers of this country work experience instead of sitting at home drinking Cheap Cider and Lagers,smoking and knocking out children for more benefits.
They are being given 10 hours a week looking for full time work. The trouble with some of todays society they expect something for nothing and expect others to pay for it.
It's a terrific idea only trouble being that it will not come in for a while yet.

Perhaps your beloved Tory government should find and weed out those individual cases then eh! Instead of blanket labelling all on benefits for more than 6 months so that ignorant folk get the impression that you have described above. Pathetic.

Edit: You were saying the other day what a different place the working world was back in your day, Unions and one that you quite rightly say I didn't know about. etc. Well it's a different world now, one that perhaps you don't quite comprehend.

And please don't be outraged on other's behalf. I understand that some of my tax may go to someone who is undeserving. That is unfortunately the downside to having a universal welfare system. I'd rather have that than where the Tories are taking us.

I'd far rather run the risk of funding some chav's fag habit than furnishing another house for Michael Gove and his pig wife. Which sort of extravagance costs you and I far more than benefit cheats.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

And another oft-quoted piece of garbage. The gold was sold at market price, which yes was lower than it is now. But even if he'd kept hold of it and sold it all at the height of its value then the difference in funds would have been around £7bn, which given that the debt is around £1.2tn is a rounding error.



And yet another one, directly equating public sector spending with benefits. Going back to the numbers let's look at where that increase in GDP went to. 80% rise in spending on housing and local amenities, 50% rise in spending on transport, 45% rise in spending on health, 30% rise in spending on education and... 6% rise in spending on welfare (all as % of GDP).

I'm sure arguments like this can go back and forth, but quite honestly I'm not so bothered by the politics of one side versus the other as much as the continual misrepresentation of facts to suit political viewpoints. It *really* irritates me.

The gold was sold at it's lowest level,costing the country far more than £7bn you quoted not only they did they sell the gold, they raided the pension funds. and when they pushed out they'left a note saying 'There's no money left' ( really, admitting their imcompetence?)
Then Balls has the audacity to sit in the house of commons with his flatlining gestures...Take another look Balls,manufacturing,exports are all improving fast,we are one of the biggest growing economies in the world

 

[mikeyjh]

The gold was sold at it's lowest level,costing the country far more than £7bn you quoted not only they did they sell the gold, they raided the pension funds. and when they pushed out they'left a note saying 'There's no money left' ( really, admitting their imcompetence?)
Then Balls has the audacity to sit in the house of commons with his flatlining gestures...Take another look Balls,manufacturing,exports are all improving fast,we are one of the biggest growing economies in the world

We really aren't, you're in fantasy land.

 

[BigGully]

We really aren't, you're in fantasy land.

No matter which party you might support, theres no getting away from it Labour are particularly shit at being shit with our public finances.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Perhaps your beloved Tory government should find and weed out those individual cases then eh! Instead of blanket labelling all on benefits for more than 6 months so that ignorant folk get the impression that you have described above. Pathetic.

Edit: You were saying the other day what a different place the working world was back in your day, Unions and one that you quite rightly say I didn't know about. etc. Well it's a different world now, one that perhaps you don't quite comprehend.

And please don't be outraged on other's behalf. I understand that some of my tax may go to someone who is undeserving. That is unfortunately the downside to having a universal welfare system. I'd rather have that than where the Tories are taking us.

I'd far rather run the risk of funding some chav's fag habit than furnishing another house for Michael Gove and his pig wife. Which sort of extravagance costs you and I far more than benefit cheats.

This was the typical reply of a Leftie I was expecting...
Please don't be outraged on others behalf ?...I'm not,I have a mind of my own and speak as I see the politics of this country are being used..I'm not outraged just discussing my thoughts in this debate,I think it is you who are being outraged on others behalf in your attacks on the Daily Mail.
You'd rather run the risk of funding some chavs fag habit (don't forget the drinks) than furnishing a house for Michael Gove and his 'pig' wife...here we go again, has to start insulting people you know nothing about,and don't you think the left politicians live off your taxes as well? Don't you think they live in expensive properties ,some have two houses..or is it just the horrible nasty Tories,the rich who trample down the huddling masses..if you are going to attack MPs for their grand lifestyle then be even,no you deliberately picked out a right wing politician because of of your left views.
Some people on the left are really nice people ( as they are on the right) but I do not sink to the level he is a Leftie therefore is bad and I should personally insult them by calling them pigs and scum.
I do comphrehend today...I still live here and I can see what's going on in the country...so please tell me where are the Tories taking us ?
Improved manufacturing,improved exports,turning us from the sick man of Europe into one of the fastest growing ecomonies in the world.
Tightening our belts rather than Labours spend,spend,borrow,borrow policy...you carry on paying for the chavs...I'd rather they got out and got a job.
I'm sure that the good people who are unemployed would be delight to Earn or Learn

 

[Seagull on the wing]

We really aren't, you're in fantasy land.

Er! suggest you look up the manufacturing figures and the financial stock market reports.

 

[mikeyjh]

Er! suggest you look up the manufacturing figures and the financial stock market reports.

No, you're right - The growth rates are only surpassed by 5 other nations, in the list of those beginning with 'U'. In fairness, the Uzbek economy is revered amongst the great financial minds of the world.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes,but why should someone sit at home living on your tax money...if nothing it will give the Jeremy Kyle watchers of this country work experience instead of sitting at home drinking Cheap Cider and Lagers,smoking and knocking out children for more benefits.
They are being given 10 hours a week looking for full time work. The trouble with some of todays society they expect something for nothing and expect others to pay for it.
It's a terrific idea only trouble being that it will not come in for a while yet.

Firstly it takes more than 10 hours a week to job hunt when you're unemployed. Secondly, if I were unlucky enough to become unemployed I wouldn't consider my JSA money for doing nothing, rather I'd consider it a small payback for the tax I've paid previously.

Using your theory pensioners are getting something for nothing from the taxpayer.

 

[trueblue]

Improved manufacturing,improved exports,turning us from the sick man of Europe into one of the fastest growing ecomonies in the world.

I suppose we might have a good ecomony. Shame the economy is in such a shit state.

Seriously, anyone that can fall for the 'fastest growing' line in relation to anything immediately undermines their own argument. Say you're the sole member of the George Osborne fan club. And by the next year you have ten members. My God, a tenfold increase.. that's the 'fastest growing' fan club in the world. Except it still only has ten, deluded people in it, of course.

 

[South Stand Rebel]

How can you prove that someone "wont work". Do you regard sending people out to "work" on schemes where they do not get paid for it is actual work? Can you make a good case in a court of law for suggesting someone "wont work" therefore society leaves them to starve? What about the dependants of that person...should they starve too?

How do you draw the line between someone who wont work and someone who cant get paid work?

This.

And what about all those sick and disabled people being declared fit for work and making them selves ill or dying because of ATOS. I think it's disgusting that the professional views of GPs and specialists who know their patients really well are dismissed and decisions made through a checklist and a cursory interview with a retired or barely qualified medical practitioner. I wouldn't be surprised if they did away with the interviews and ordered all these people to strip naked and run around in a circle. In the middle would be an old gramaphone, and a man in a black uniform with a peaked hat. He would then select those who are able to work. Seems like a reasonable scheme, doesn't it?

 

[Nibble]

This was the typical reply of a Leftie I was expecting...
Please don't be outraged on others behalf ?...I'm not,I have a mind of my own and speak as I see the politics of this country are being used..I'm not outraged just discussing my thoughts in this debate,I think it is you who are being outraged on others behalf in your attacks on the Daily Mail.
You'd rather run the risk of funding some chavs fag habit (don't forget the drinks) than furnishing a house for Michael Gove and his 'pig' wife...here we go again, has to start insulting people you know nothing about,and don't you think the left politicians live off your taxes as well? Don't you think they live in expensive properties ,some have two houses..or is it just the horrible nasty Tories,the rich who trample down the huddling masses..if you are going to attack MPs for their grand lifestyle then be even,no you deliberately picked out a right wing politician because of of your left views.
Some people on the left are really nice people ( as they are on the right) but I do not sink to the level he is a Leftie therefore is bad and I should personally insult them by calling them pigs and scum.
I do comphrehend today...I still live here and I can see what's going on in the country...so please tell me where are the Tories taking us ?
Improved manufacturing,improved exports,turning us from the sick man of Europe into one of the fastest growing ecomonies in the world.
Tightening our belts rather than Labours spend,spend,borrow,borrow policy...you carry on paying for the chavs...I'd rather they got out and got a job.
I'm sure that the good people who are unemployed would be delight to Earn or Learn

I don't especially like Labour MP's living the high life on my taxes either but at least they didn't try and take money from the nation's most vulnerable to do so. You don't live in the real world son.

 

[BigGully]

I don't especially like Labour MP's living the high life on my taxes either but at least they didn't try and take money from the nation's most vulnerable to do so. You don't live in the real world son.

Why would they be the most vulnerable ?

Some might feel a little more vulnerable today than a few months ago, but only if they really do not want to work.

If I was a genuine guy looking for work, I would feel hopeful of work and look forward to a programme, that granted seems to make me suddenly more accountable, but that is an inevitability, it comes with the territory in a modern working environment.

The prospect of work for some seems to be a positive pay off against those that feel aggrieved and demotivated by anything effecting their present position.

 

[brightonrock]

Here's some actual figures for anyone who wants to discuss facts, rather than rabid right v left mudslinging.

According to DW&P & HMRC figures:
The overall welfare bill in 2012 was £112billion, and is an estimated £200billion for 2013. The current number of long term unemployed is 200,000, who make up an estimated 2.5% of the overall British welfare spend per annum. 2.5% of £200billion is £5billion per year. The scheme will cost £300million, so even assuming it gets EVERYONE who is LTU into a job, it will save c£4.7billion (approx).

Corporate tax avoidance by big business costs the UK £12billion a year.

Is the benefit bill too large? Yes. Is it annoying I work long hours whilst others don't at all and they get as much, if not more than I earn, in benefit? Yes. Is it the biggest problem we face? Nope.

The problem is people are unable to suspend their self righteous indignation of me v them, and look unemotionally at cold hard figures. Closing tax loopholes would be 2-3x as effective in fighting our deficit as trying to demonise and generalise the unemployed. Then the government could reinvest that tax money and create jobs, full time jobs, not part time or zero hours, and get people into work and contributing tax & NI back into the pot.

 

[BigGully]

Here's some actual figures for anyone who wants to discuss facts, rather than rabid right v left mudslinging.

According to DW&P & HMRC figures:
The overall welfare bill in 2012 was £112billion, and is an estimated £200billion for 2013. The current number of long term unemployed is 200,000, who make up an estimated 2.5% of the overall British welfare spend per annum. 2.5% of £200billion is £5billion per year. The scheme will cost £300million, so even assuming it gets EVERYONE who is LTU into a job, it will save c£4.7billion.

Corporate tax avoidance by big business costs the UK £12billion a year.

Is the benefit bill too large? Yes. Is it annoyingly I work long hours whilst others don't at all and they get as much, if not more than I earn, in benefit? Yes. Is it the biggest problem we face? Nope.

The problem is people are unable to suspend their self righteous indignation of me v them, and look unemotionally at cold hard figures. Closing tax loopholes would be 2-3x as effective in fighting our deficit as trying to demonise and generalise the unemployed. Then the government could reinvest that tax money and create jobs, full time jobs, not part time or zero hours, and get people into work and contributibg tax & NI back into the pot.

Hold on just one minute, if you are talking about legal tax 'loopholes', you are just offering a figure based on a greater tax take if any government felt the need to change tax legislation.

Thats just offering how you or others might wish to change our tax laws and offering a figure on what it might or might not bring in, more of political broadcast than based on facts.

I accept that its worthy of a debate as are many aspects of the tax in this country, but for me it is not wholly relevant.