Smoking ban - something I didn't consider!

[Cian]

Missed this one in my last post. Where is the equality for people who want to smoke inside a pub? By banning it in all pubs rather that giving a choice surely any equality is being taken away.

No, theres full equality - its no smoking in any pubs. You may want to take heroin in a pub, or have a wank, or whatever, but its not "equality" preventing you.

 

[Cian]

A couple of points. To say that you are killing people is a major overreaction, if anyone can produce evidence that non-smokers who worked in pubs have been killed directly by cigarette smoke i'd like to see it.
Re the issuse about being able to choose where you work. People are say that the economics would not allow a sufficient number of non-smoking pubs for non smokers to work in, as the majority would still be smoking pubs. To that I'd say that a) there are plenty of other non skilled jobs out there, you don't have to work in a pub. And b) does the fact that most pubs would choose to be smoking not indicate that most people who actually drink in or run pubs are not in favour of the ban. You can present statistics all you like but I bet the majority of the people asked don't even use the pub regularly.

You're still getting back to "oh, you could work/drink somewhere else". That is not a valid argument. Excluding people from their chosen job or drinking establishment so that other people can indulge in a recognised dangerous habit is discriminatory, and would not be allowed in law.

 

[Billy the Fish]

You're still getting back to "oh, you could work/drink somewhere else". That is not a valid argument. Excluding people from their chosen job or drinking establishment so that other people can indulge in a recognised dangerous habit is discriminatory, and would not be allowed in law.

But it's not excluding them, it's just saying that you have to live with the dangers associated with that profession. Fishermen have one of the most dangerous professions, but there isn't a rush to ban that, if you don't like it just don't do the job.
I see your point about equality, but if that's the case, I'd rather have a choice everytime.

 

[Cian]

But it's not excluding them, it's just saying that you have to live with the dangers associated with that profession. Fishermen have one of the most dangerous professions, but there isn't a rush to ban that, if you don't like it just don't do the job.
I see your point about equality, but if that's the case, I'd rather have a choice everytime.

Doesn't kill others. This is the major factor people willfully ignore.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Doesn't kill others. This is the major factor people willfully ignore.

But has it been proved that working in a bar does? Like I said before, if there's any evidence I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Cian]

But has it been proved that working in a bar does? Like I said before, if there's any evidence I'd be interested to see it.

Roy Castle.

Give me a faster net connection (work is GLACIAL at lunchtime and I'm too busy to do it after lunch) and I'll get you actual stats. But yes, it has been proven, and that is why the main reason the ban was brought in here (Ireland) in 2004.

 

[pasty]

Excluding people from their chosen job or drinking establishment so that other people can indulge in a recognised dangerous habit is discriminatory, and would not be allowed in law.

Yet excluding people from their chosen workplace or drinking establishment for doing something that is not illegal (ie smoking) is allowed in law?

 

[Cian]

Yet excluding people from their chosen workplace or drinking establishment for doing something that is not illegal (ie smoking) is allowed in law?

Because its banned, by law, in that type of venue, yes.

 

[Monkster]

23 pages

 

[pasty]

Because its banned, by law, in that type of venue, yes.

You're begining to contradict yourself. On one hand you are saying excluding people from their chosen job or drinking establishment so that other people can indulge in a recognised dangerous habit is discriminatory, and therefore not allowed in law, and on th other hand you appear to be saying that excluding people from their chosen workplace or drinking establishment for doing something that is not illegal (ie smoking) is allowed in law, and so by your argument is non-disriminatory, yet it clearly is.

 

[Cian]

You're begining to contradict yourself. On one hand you are saying excluding people from their chosen job or drinking establishment so that other people can indulge in a recognised dangerous habit is discriminatory, and therefore not allowed in law, and on th other hand you appear to be saying that excluding people from their chosen workplace or drinking establishment for doing something that is not illegal (ie smoking) is allowed in law, and so by your argument is non-disriminatory, yet it clearly is.

Its not contradictory in the slightest.

The state has the ability to ban something, which it has done. This is not discriminatory as it is an across the board ban. You can't smoke in any pub, or any club, or any office.

Stating, as the anti-ban'ers are, that people can just chose not to go somewhere smoky, is discriminatory as it creates a two-tier system where those who do not wish to die from others pollutants are restricted as to where to go, e.g. they can only go to some pubs, some clubs, or some offices.

 

[binky]

where those who do not wish to die from others pollutants are restricted as to where to go,

Wow. You make it sound like anyone entering such a venue will immediately fall gasping to the floor and expire.
Do you really need to use such emotive language to establish your point?

 

[pasty]

Its not contradictory in the slightest.

The state has the ability to ban something, which it has done. This is not discriminatory as it is an across the board ban. You can't smoke in any pub, or any club, or any office.

Stating, as the anti-ban'ers are, that people can just chose not to go somewhere smoky, is discriminatory as it creates a two-tier system where those who do not wish to die from others pollutants are restricted as to where to go, e.g. they can only go to some pubs, some clubs, or some offices.

To discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs.

How on earth can you possibly say that the smoking ban is not discriminatory? As a smoker I can no longer do something that is not illegal in an establishment where I have been doing it for some years. Forget the ins and outs of the whether the ban is right or wrong, how can that not be discriminating against smokers?

You'll be telling me next that not letting black people sit on certain seats of a bus in 1960's America was not discriminatory because they could always it in a different seat!

 

[sten_super]

As a smoker I can no longer do something that is not illegal in an establishment where I have been doing it for some years. Forget the ins and outs of the whether the ban is right or wrong, how can that not be discriminating against smokers?

But that is exactly the point! It is now illegal to do it in that establishment. This is a place-specific ban, which makes it illegal to smoke in workplaces.

This argument is now really going round in circles... if you believe that your right to smoke in an enclosed space is really honestly more important than the right that people have to work in a clean healthy environment then I don't think anything anyone has to say is going to change your mind. I would question your sense of perspective though.

 

[Billy the Fish]

But that is exactly the point! It is now illegal to do it in that establishment. This is a place-specific ban, which makes it illegal to smoke in workplaces.

This argument is now really going round in circles... if you believe that your right to smoke in an enclosed space is really honestly more important than the right that people have to work in a clean healthy environment then I don't think anything anyone has to say is going to change your mind. I would question your sense of perspective though.

But to go round in circles yet again, what everyone is saying is that there should be a choice. If there were both smoking and non smoking pubs people would be able to choose. We would then be in a supply and demand situation and over time I'm sure the amount of money going into the tills would dictate the number of each kind of pub there was. A persons right to work in a clean and healthy environment is important, I agree with that, but I'm sure there are enough people who would be willing to waive that right and work in the smoking pubs.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

But to go round in circles yet again, what everyone is saying is that there should be a choice. If there were both smoking and non smoking pubs people would be able to choose. We would then be in a supply and demand situation and over time I'm sure the amount of money going into the tills would dictate the number of each kind of pub there was. A persons right to work in a clean and healthy environment is important, I agree with that, but I'm sure there are enough people who would be willing to waive that right and work in the smoking pubs.

Smokers. Read Alan Carrs "Easy way to give up smoking", quit easily and then come back on here claiming that smoking is a desirable, fun and harmless hobby which you only do because you like it, rather than the truth which is you are compelled to do it because you are an addict.

I was a heavy smoker and quit so easily with his method (as have loads of my pals) and whilst I am supportive of peoples right to smoke, indeed I don't mind smokers in my home, I do think that it is intrusive, unhealthy and unsupportable in a public setting.

A few years ago there was probably opium fiends who were demanding their right to smoke brown in public because they enjoyed it and it helped them relax, time has proved they were wrong, as it will with Tobacco smoking.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

As any smoker worth his woodbines will admit - it is an anti-social habit. Just go and be anti-social outside.

 

[British Bulldog]

As any smoker worth his woodbines will admit - it is an anti-social habit. Just go and be anti-social outside.

I'm more than happy to do that ( i've been doing it at home for years ) I just want somebody to provide me with some safe anti-social fire proof bins to put my fag butt in Instead of just threatening to fine me if I leave it on the street. It's not too much to ask is it?

 

[sten_super]

But to go round in circles yet again, what everyone is saying is that there should be a choice. If there were both smoking and non smoking pubs people would be able to choose. We would then be in a supply and demand situation and over time I'm sure the amount of money going into the tills would dictate the number of each kind of pub there was. A persons right to work in a clean and healthy environment is important, I agree with that, but I'm sure there are enough people who would be willing to waive that right and work in the smoking pubs.

A choice wouldn't work for 2 reasons as I see it
i) it would create grounds for legal challenges from all kinds of workplace that would demand similar exemptions.
ii) it would require some people to work in hazardous conditions. Yes they may 'waive' their right as you put it, as people would if the money is good enough, but would still place their health in danger. As I see it the entire point of a blanket ban is to stop anyone, even one single person, being forced (by monetary means or other) to work in conditions which are damaging to their health.

It is this 'waiving' of rights that I think we basically disagree on. I am a firm believer that no-one should work in a dangerous environment. If for no other reason than it is my taxes going towards the NHS which will have to be used to pay for any treatment they may require.

 

[Billy the Fish]

A few years ago there was probably opium fiends who were demanding their right to smoke brown in public because they enjoyed it and it helped them relax, time has proved they were wrong, as it will with Tobacco smoking.

I don't necessarily agree with that either.
I'd jalso like to make it clear that I don't smoke and never have done.