[Finance] Self employed to receive 80% of income from the Gov’t too

[Weststander]

How about if just one director carries on working and others are furloughed? No need to mothball the company as there always things that need paying and admin even if there is zero business coming in

The others will get it, subject to the small print of the new legislation.

Inherent in your question, no need to comment , is the obvious ruse that all but one director claim that they’re were on gardening leave furloughed at home. Never opening business emails or discussing business with the working director (who might be their husband or wife), or other admin or client duties.

No doubt everyone will try it on, with £10B’s available, imho millions of business owners will be tempted to lie. Human nature on seeing a government fruit machine.

 

[Icy Gull]

The others will get it, subject to the small print of the new legislation.

Inherent in your question, no need to comment , is the obvious ruse that all but one director claim that they’re were on gardening leave furloughed at home. Never opening business emails or discussing business with the working director (who might be their husband or wife), or other admin or client duties.

No doubt everyone will try it on, with £10B’s available, imho millions of business owners will be tempted to lie. Human nature on seeing a government fruit machine.

Get your point, but I can’t see that having conversations with staff and directors to discuss things can be considered to be working. I was thinking of standard email replies explaining that any queries should be sent to the “working” director. I am very conscious that we don’t want to take the piss on what is basically a business saving offer

Have to wait and see exactly what is laid down once legislation is published

 

[Weststander]

Get your point, but I can’t see that having conversations with staff and directors to discuss things can be considered to be working. I was thinking of standard email replies explaining that any queries should be sent to the “working” director. I am very conscious that we don’t want to take the piss on what is basically a business saving offer

Have to wait and see exactly what is laid down once legislation is published

I’m not the HMRC policeman! We know that almost everyone is going to see what they can get, many because they’re genuinely struggling, but the criminally minded will try to exploit this - we saw this with Grenfell, where quite a few scummers are now in prison for lying that they were Grenfell residents and stealing from the emergency funds one way or another.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Yeah the blaggers will be all over this.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Those people you are referring to have been limiting their National Insurance Contributions to virtually zero by their own choice . They have by choice been taxed at lower dividend rates for in many cases for lots of years.

They have had more than their fair share of the Government Assistance by paying less tax and NIC than others in their lifetime already.

I am not opposed to assisting people who need it but these people have been helping themselves to Government money by setting their tax affairs up the way that they have. They can't start crying now that for a year or so the tax system may no longer tickle their ears.

I too have clients in this position that I have become friends with over the years but unlike you. I have no problem telling then that for once the tax system hasn't dealt them a good hand.

There are people in various trade sectors who were told they could ONLY get work if they were a limited company - for many people limited status was foisted upon them.

A large number of these people are unable to run a limited company and the compliance that goes with it, or have enough about them to set sufficient money aside for taxes.

Virtually all directors use accountants to help them and ALL accountants are going to advise those directors to do what they can that is legal in order to minimise their tax liability.

There are 2 main culprits here:

1. The government - At any point they could have changed the rates of taxation and the rules imposed upon big business - this could have changed behaviour They have failed. I have particular contempt for the Office of Tax Simplification who have done f*ck all in 10 years and should now be hanging their heads in shame at this farcical situation.

2. Big business - They have been keen to cut their costs and boost their profits by forcing people to incorporate, thereby avoiding Employer's NI, holiday and sick pay, auto-enrolment and the HR shitstorm that goes with redundancy. I have personal experience of 2 - McDonalds and Nandos shame on you.

 

[LlcoolJ]

There are people in various trade sectors who were told they could ONLY get work if they were a limited company - for many people limited status was foisted upon them.

A large number of these people are unable to run a limited company and the compliance that goes with it, or have enough about them to set sufficient money aside for taxes.

Virtually all directors use accountants to help them and ALL accountants are going to advise those directors to do what they can that is legal in order to minimise their tax liability.

There are 2 main culprits here:

1. The government - At any point they could have changed the rates of taxation and the rules imposed upon big business - this could have changed behaviour They have failed. I have particular contempt for the Office of Tax Simplification who have done f*ck all in 10 years and should now be hanging their heads in shame at this farcical situation.

2. Big business - They have been keen to cut their costs and boost their profits by forcing people to incorporate, thereby avoiding Employer's NI, holiday and sick pay, auto-enrolment and the HR shitstorm that goes with redundancy. I have personal experience of 2 - McDonalds and Nandos shame on you.

Well said sir. Chapeau.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

As far as I’m aware, businesses still don’t have access to any of these schemes from the government. Is that still true? Currently abroad so info is limited aside from what I’ve been told from friends, family and business owners that I know. If so, it all seems like a lot of talk and no real action.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Correct.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Atuaries - people who found the excitement of Accounting too much.

You can always tell an outgoing actuary as they look at your shoes, instead of their own, when talking to you

 

[Weststander]

As far as I’m aware, businesses still don’t have access to any of these schemes from the government. Is that still true? Currently abroad so info is limited aside from what I’ve been told from friends, family and business owners that I know. If so, it all seems like a lot of talk and no real action.

Limited companies - so far measures to help them on VAT and corporation tax payments (kicked into the long grass), HMRC to meet 80% of staff costs up to a cap for employees sent home and not working, cheap bank loans guaranteed by the government so no risk to the banks, nil rates for hospitality businesses, and cash grants.

Sole traders, business partners & possibly freelancers - to be announced by the Chancellor later this afternoon.

 

[Weststander]

Atuaries - people who found the excitement of Accounting too much.

You can always tell an outgoing actuary as they look at your shoes, instead of their own, when talking to you

I remember the jokes about actuaries being even more dull.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Limited companies - so far measures to help them on VAT and corporation tax payments (kicked into the long grass), HMRC to meet 80% of staff costs up to a cap for employees sent home and not working, cheap bank loans guaranteed by the government so no risk to the banks, nil rates for hospitality businesses, and cash grants.

Sole traders, business partners & possibly freelancers - to be announced by the Chancellor later this afternoon.

But he's right. No actual mechanism to claim yet so no money. Lots of promises and hot air..... Completely understand why as the logistics must be a total nightmare. But as I said, this shït should be being operated by anyone other than HMRC.

 

[LlcoolJ]

[emoji38]ol: I remember the jokes about actuaries being even more dull.

I've heard that. I'm like the Davy Kleinfeld of the accountancy world. "Dull" is not something I've ever been called actually. [emoji23]

 

[Weststander]

But he's right. No actual mechanism to claim yet so no money. Lots of promises and hot air..... Completely understand why as the logistics must be a total nightmare. But as I said, this shït should be being operated by anyone other than HMRC.

True.

But how can it be set up in a couple of weeks, a unique new system, with safeguards to prevent mass fraud?

You know I agree with you about the incompetence of some HMRC departments btw.

 

[Weststander]

I've heard that. I'm like the Davy Kleinfeld of the accountancy world. "Dull" is not something I've ever been called actually. [emoji23]

I’ve always had the “you don’t look like an accountant” comment from folk in general. I took that as a compliment, but did they think I looked thick?

 

[Icy Gull]

I’ve always had the “you don’t look like an accountant” comment from folk in general. I took that as a compliment, but did they think I looked thick?

You know how it goes Estate Agents are scum and accountants are mind numbingly boring etc

My accountant is a loose cannon and great fun in fairness. I would NOT go out on the piss with him

 

[LlcoolJ]

True.

But how can it be set up in a couple of weeks, a unique new system, with safeguards to prevent mass fraud?

You know I agree with you about the incompetence of some HMRC departments btw.

Yes, I'm agreeing with you too. An almost impossible task. But don't give it to a department of government that's already totally dysfunctional and on its knees staff wise. Oh hang on, they all are!

That's why farming the thought processes and IT stuff out to PWC or E&Y etc would make more sense during this crisis.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Those people you are referring to have been limiting their National Insurance Contributions to virtually zero by their own choice . They have by choice been taxed at lower dividend rates for in many cases for lots of years.

They have had more than their fair share of the Government Assistance by paying less tax and NIC than others in their lifetime already.

I am not opposed to assisting people who need it but these people have been helping themselves to Government money by setting their tax affairs up the way that they have. They can't start crying now that for a year or so the tax system may no longer tickle their ears.

I too have clients in this position that I have become friends with over the years but unlike you. I have no problem telling then that for once the tax system hasn't dealt them a good hand.

Kind of rubbish though for say your average one-man-band turnover so an average tradesman / professional turnover, because the difference between tax paid as a Sole Trader - Limited Company isn't actually significant between the two, what is significant is the legal entity of trading, such as the exposure of personal assets, and as others have said, the requirements of customers of the service.

The difficulty of a sole trader as limited company is setting the salary to an extent of having money in the bank to pay it each month. For many it is about cash flow, and it is much easier to operate on a low salary keeping cash in the company as long as possible for potential fluctuations. The government prefer the limited company model with the company bank account and stricter accountancy rules, because of the loop holes sole trading gives you.

Out of all the people you can take a pop at with regard to tax affairs, your average 1 man band as a limited company operating perfectly and reasonably within the rules as set should not really be one of them. All this 'crying now' because they may have saved a couple of £100 here and there in tax just comes across as a bit misguided.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Kind of rubbish though for say your average one-man-band turnover so an average tradesman / professional turnover, because the difference between tax paid as a Sole Trader - Limited Company isn't actually significant between the two, what is significant is the legal entity of trading, such as the exposure of personal assets, and as others have said, the requirements of customers of the service.

The difficulty of a sole trader as limited company is setting the salary to an extent of having money in the bank to pay it each month. For many it is about cash flow, and it is much easier to operate on a low salary keeping cash in the company as long as possible for potential fluctuations. The government prefer the limited company model with the company bank account and stricter accountancy rules, because of the loop holes sole trading gives you.

Out of all the people you can take a pop at with regard to tax affairs, your average 1 man band as a limited company operating perfectly and reasonably within the rules as set should not really be one of them. All this 'crying now' because they may have saved a couple of £100 here and there in tax just comes across as a bit misguided.

I couldn't have put it better. Clearly, because I've tried.

Noo said he had clients/friends in this kind of situation. Not having a pop but I'm glad I'm not one of them. With friends like those......

Plus if you are doing work for these people and then chucking them under the bus (when you've profited from their situation previously) that's more than ideologically boss eyed. It's just plain nasty.

I just want everyone to be as ok as possible through this. It's going to cost EVERY government a bloody fortune but who cares provided people can still eat/live/pay their rent etc.

It'll come back in taxes/fines for those who blagged it and so on eventually anyway. For now we just need to look after people.

 

[NooBHA]

There are people in various trade sectors who were told they could ONLY get work if they were a limited company - for many people limited status was foisted upon them.

A large number of these people are unable to run a limited company and the compliance that goes with it, or have enough about them to set sufficient money aside for taxes.

Virtually all directors use accountants to help them and ALL accountants are going to advise those directors to do what they can that is legal in order to minimise their tax liability.

There are 2 main culprits here:

1. The government - At any point they could have changed the rates of taxation and the rules imposed upon big business - this could have changed behaviour They have failed. I have particular contempt for the Office of Tax Simplification who have done f*ck all in 10 years and should now be hanging their heads in shame at this farcical situation.

2. Big business - They have been keen to cut their costs and boost their profits by forcing people to incorporate, thereby avoiding Employer's NI, holiday and sick pay, auto-enrolment and the HR shitstorm that goes with redundancy. I have personal experience of 2 - McDonalds and Nandos shame on you.

You are not telling me anything I don't know already - However it is still a fact that they their Contributions in terms of NIC into the Treasury has been negligible for years.

And you are correct Governments should have clamped down on it years ago - It doesn't stop me having the opinion I have. Their should have been a Roll out of Grants across the board to individuals.