[Politics] Schools 4 Climate Action - great turn out in Brighton

[dingodan]

All the evidence we have shows that humans are changing the climate. You really do appear to have your head in the sand regarding the data.

That is such an empty statement. There is no evidence which demonstrates scientifically that humans are changing the climate. It isn't actually possible to prove it. There isn't enough data because in relative terms humans haven't been around long enough. Climate trends span thousands of years. Our impact can only be presumed to start after the industrial revolution. So we don't know, and we can't know, whether changing trends in the climate have something to do with us, are a result of something else, or are part of a natural cycle.

There is no evidence. There is consensus, but it's not based on evidence. It's based on politics and ideology and on emotion. I don't oppose environmentalism, I think people concerned about the evironment are right to be, and anyone who wants to make positive change for the better is a good person, no question.

Just don't manipulate and lie to do it. If you want to argue that we may be impacting the climate, and we should act as if we are, because perhaps we won't be able to prove it until it's too late - That would be an honest argument, in fact it used to be the argument that was made. It's called the precautionary principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

Regarding international conduct, the first endorsement of the principle was in 1982 when the World Charter for Nature was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, while its first international implementation was in 1987 through the Montreal Protocol. Soon after, the principle integrated with many other legally binding international treaties such as the Rio Declaration and Kyoto Protocol.

Now environmentalists just lie, they say "we know" AND they call people who question them "deniers". They scare children into thinking the world will end and that human beings are "killing" the planet and they should be terrified and nothing is getting better.

I'm sorry but the ends do not justify the means. Environmentalism would have so much more support if it was honest and careful about educating people and telling the truth. Instead it is using spin and politics (and the demonization of anyone who cares about the truth) and it's scaring, misinforming and manipulating children.

Those things are hurting the cause of environmentalism. People who oppose modern day environmentalism do so for these reasons, not because they don't care about the environment. You would be better of telling the truth, people don't respond well to attempts to manipulate them and lie to them.

(EDIT: To be fair most people aren't deliberately lying, they are all just believing each others misinformed opinions. Everyone just repeats "all the evidence shows" without knowing what that means. Safe in the knowledge that everyone else seems to agree. I just care about the truth and people being properly educated and thinking things through thoroughly for themselves. That's what you need to be able to do to have any chance of solving problems.)

 

[FIVESTEPS]

It's MUGS like you that sit back your whole life and do sweet F A! Then complain when it's too late

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

My point was that most are aware of the danger of climate change.As to what I do,I have done all I can to the house,I walk to work am an infrequent flier I donate to environmental charities and when I go for a walk I often take a bag to pick up litter.If having sympathy for people trying to get to work such as nurses as was reported makes me a mug then guilty as charged.

 

[portlock seagull]

[TWEET]1118798080458076161[/TWEET]

This highlights for me the big issue I have with Climate Change deniers. Sure, if you want to not believe it, knock yourself out. But surely even if you don't believe it it's still better to be safe than sorry and act to reduce pollution and emissions anyway? A bit like how I don't believe in God but I still realise that being nice to people and not killing them is a better thing to be doing than not.

I’m definitely doing my bit and looking for ways to do more but it’s really frustrating having to deal with cynics and deniers. This is why only regulation and tax (from people’s pay packets) will work. Millions would be denying as the tsunami towers over then, the flames lick their roofs etc. Said this for a long time. And also the only way to do this quickly and efficiently now is to declare martial law and putting us on a war footing with rationing and so forth until a new rebalanced equilibrium in favour of the planet is set. We waste so much. We consume too much. We’re selfish. Narcissistic. In denial. We need not worry about going to hell. Because Hell is coming to us, quite literally.

Stop having children
Stop long haul flights
Eat less meat or even stop altogether
Lobby your politicians

And DON’T just sit their snipping and sneering about how it’s unrealistic, other countries are worse blah blah blah. Take some bloody responsibility yourself. Walk to the shop for that pint of milk or plan your life better so that you pick it up in route instead of jumping in the car because you forgot. Reuse those Amazon outers for sending your own parcels. Take containers to the shops to put loose foods in, instead of buying everything in shrink wrap. Get a soda stream and stop buying carbonated water or soft drinks in plastic bottles. Stop walking round your house in a t shirt complaining it’s cold and turning up the heating, stick a jumper on instead!! There are so many little things we can all do to cut the ridiculous levels of waste and consumption we have. Car share. Get up 10mins earlier and get a bus. Re evaluate where you work and see if you can’t find somewhere that doesn’t involve 60mins in the car. Or once a week trips the length of the country. Literally loads of things we can all do to reduce our carbon footprint.

 

[portlock seagull]

My point was that most are aware of the danger of climate change.As to what I do,I have done all I can to the house,I walk to work am an infrequent flier I donate to environmental charities and when I go for a walk I often take a bag to pick up litter.If having sympathy for people trying to get to work such as nurses as was reported makes me a mug then guilty as charged.

This is brilliant stuff, well played you. I really appreciate your efforts and many more will do likewise - keep it up!

 

[nicko31]

That is such an empty statement. There is no evidence which demonstrates scientifically that humans are changing the climate. It isn't actually possible to prove it. There isn't enough data because in relative terms humans haven't been around long enough. Climate trends span thousands of years. Our impact can only be presumed to start after the industrial revolution. So we don't know, and we can't know, whether changing trends in the climate have something to do with us, are a result of something else, or are part of a natural cycle.

There is no evidence. There is consensus, but it's not based on evidence. It's based on politics and ideology and on emotion. I don't oppose environmentalism, I think people concerned about the evironment are right to be, and anyone who wants to make positive change for the better is a good person, no question.

Just don't manipulate and lie to do it. If you want to argue that we may be impacting the climate, and we should act as if we are, because perhaps we won't be able to prove it until it's too late - That would be an honest argument, in fact it used to be the argument that was made. It's called the precautionary principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle



Now environmentalists just lie, they say "we know" AND they call people who question them "deniers". They scare children into thinking the world will end and that human beings are "killing" the planet and they should be terrified and nothing is getting better.

I'm sorry but the ends do not justify the means. Environmentalism would have so much more support if it was honest and careful about educating people and telling the truth. Instead it is using spin and politics (and the demonization of anyone who cares about the truth) and it's scaring, misinforming and manipulating children.

Those things are hurting the cause of environmentalism. People who oppose modern day environmentalism do so for these reasons, not because they don't care about the environment. You would be better of telling the truth, people don't respond well to attempts to manipulate them and lie to them.

(EDIT: To be fair most people aren't deliberately lying, they are all just believing each others misinformed opinions. Everyone just repeats "all the evidence shows" without knowing what that means. Safe in the knowledge that everyone else seems to agree. I just care about the truth and people being properly educated and thinking things through thoroughly for themselves. That's what you need to be able to do to have any chance of solving problems.)

Would you agree its best now to take action, ie better safe than sorry?

If the "no called" experts are all wrong on man made climate change, will it be a disaster? Or just a temporary hit to corporations with vested interests...

 

[Deleted member 22389]

One of my biggest issues is IT waste. Always try and sell my old computer bits online and always give the buyer some alternative uses. For instance old motherboards, old processors, OK it's not going to run the latest Microsoft OS, but what It will run is a Linux distribution. Saves it going to the tip. We are all doing our bit.

 

[portlock seagull]

They don't share my opinion. I believe that the facts and the truth of things actually matters if you want to address problems.

They, and you, apparently don't.

Fortunately you’re in a minority and exactly the sort of mindset that serves as a barrier. We haven’t got time to argue about opinions anymore, do your oh so prescious data collection exercise because as I’ve previously said, millions like you will still be arguing the toss as your roof burns or a starving polar bear enters your garden in BN1 looking for food. We just need to get on with, those who resist or don’t cooperate simply need to be forced. Bit like conscription during war. Like it or not, it’s a national emergency and you don’t get to choose in or out. You’re in. Because you’re alive and sharing the same toxic air as me and all those who want to clean our collective act up for the sake of future generations

 

[nicko31]

I’m definitely doing my bit and looking for ways to do more but it’s really frustrating having to deal with cynics and deniers. This is why only regulation and tax (from people’s pay packets) will work. Millions would be denying as the tsunami towers over then, the flames lick their roofs etc. Said this for a long time. And also the only way to do this quickly and efficiently now is to declare martial law and putting us on a war footing with rationing and so forth until a new rebalanced equilibrium in favour of the planet is set. We waste so much. We consume too much. We’re selfish. Narcissistic. In denial. We need not worry about going to hell. Because Hell is coming to us, quite literally.

Stop having children
Stop long haul flights
Eat less meat or even stop altogether
Lobby your politicians

And DON’T just sit their snipping and sneering about how it’s unrealistic, other countries are worse blah blah blah. Take some bloody responsibility yourself. Walk to the shop for that pint of milk or plan your life better so that you pick it up in route instead of jumping in the car because you forgot. Reuse those Amazon outers for sending your own parcels. Take containers to the shops to put loose foods in, instead of buying everything in shrink wrap. Get a soda stream and stop buying carbonated water or soft drinks in plastic bottles. Stop walking round your house in a t shirt complaining it’s cold and turning up the heating, stick a jumper on instead!! There are so many little things we can all do to cut the ridiculous levels of waste and consumption we have. Car share. Get up 10mins earlier and get a bus. Re evaluate where you work and see if you can’t find somewhere that doesn’t involve 60mins in the car. Or once a week trips the length of the country. Literally loads of things we can all do to reduce our carbon footprint.

Think a big thing also is ethical or green investments, there is growing investment they perform just as well as standard investments.

Just asking the question to a fund manager or financial adviser will drive change towards this. Corporations will change if the oxygen is capital is taken away

 

[beorhthelm]

Would you agree its best now to take action, ie better safe than sorry?

If the "no called" experts are all wrong on man made climate change, will it be a disaster? Or just a temporary hit to corporations with vested interests...

depends how serious you want to take it. if you want real action to address the worse case outcomes, its more than a temporay hit to business, entire industries and sectors need to drastically change, shrink or close. tourism for example, its hard to justify short or long haul flights for a week or two leisure. how much action are we willing to take?

 

[dingodan]

Would you agree its best now to take action, ie better safe than sorry?

If the "no called" experts are all wrong on man made climate change, will it be a disaster? Or just a temporary hit to corporations with vested interests...

It depends what your solutions are, but you will likely come up with poor solutions or not think them through carefully if you have the diagnosis wrong.

Groupthink occurs when a group of well-intentioned people make irrational or non-optimal decisions that are spurred by the urge to conform or the discouragement of dissent. This problematic or premature consensus may be fueled by a particular agenda or simply because group members value harmony and coherence above rational thinking. In a groupthink situation, group members refrain from expressing doubts and judgments or disagreeing with the consensus. In the interest of making a decision that furthers their group cause, members may ignore any ethical or moral consequences.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/basics/groupthink

 

[dingodan]

Fortunately you’re in a minority and exactly the sort of mindset that serves as a barrier. We haven’t got time to argue about opinions anymore, do your oh so prescious data collection exercise because as I’ve previously said, millions like you will still be arguing the toss as your roof burns or a starving polar bear enters your garden in BN1 looking for food. We just need to get on with, those who resist or don’t cooperate simply need to be forced. Bit like conscription during war. Like it or not, it’s a national emergency and you don’t get to choose in or out. You’re in. Because you’re alive and sharing the same toxic air as me and all those who want to clean our collective act up for the sake of future generations

You believe that human beings are causing the planet's climate to change. Just say that, and don't say that you know it, because you don't. That's all I am asking.

I want a clean environment, I want ecosystems and species saved from the harmful effects of human activity. I just don't want manipulation and a society of people who are unwilling to test what they believe and unwilling to be careful about what they say. We can solve problems if we face them honestly and truthfully, but we will have significant other problems if we find ourselves unable or unwilling to do that.

 

[The Spanish]

Really, really? You complain about people calling the likes of you thick and then you come out with this absolute belter. Have you been living in a hole in the ground or do you just switch off when climate change is mentioned?

surely that's the ultimate commitment to environmentally sustainable living. Well done him!

 

[portlock seagull]

You believe that human beings are causing the planet's climate to change. Just say that, and don't say that you know it, because you don't. That's all I am asking.

I want a clean environment, I want ecosystems and species saved from the harmful effects of human activity. I just don't want manipulation and a society of people who are unwilling to test what they believe and unwilling to be careful about what they say. We can solve problems if we face them honestly and truthfully, but we will have significant other problems if we find ourselves unable or unwilling to do that.

I’ll go with what Sir David Attenborough and his bunch of leading world scientists are saying thanks. 9pm BBC1 tonight. Fully expect you to be telling us all tomorrow first thing as to why you’re still right and they’re wrong mind

 

[worthingseagull123]

Fortunately you’re in a minority and exactly the sort of mindset that serves as a barrier. We haven’t got time to argue about opinions anymore, do your oh so prescious data collection exercise because as I’ve previously said, millions like you will still be arguing the toss as your roof burns or a starving polar bear enters your garden in BN1 looking for food. We just need to get on with, those who resist or don’t cooperate simply need to be forced. Bit like conscription during war. Like it or not, it’s a national emergency and you don’t get to choose in or out. You’re in. Because you’re alive and sharing the same toxic air as me and all those who want to clean our collective act up for the sake of future generations

It is not how it works. If people believed enough in cause there would be a majority embracing veganism, not taking foreign holidays etc.

You cannot force change and no government will want to upset voters.

 

[worthingseagull123]

I’m definitely doing my bit and looking for ways to do more but it’s really frustrating having to deal with cynics and deniers. This is why only regulation and tax (from people’s pay packets) will work. Millions would be denying as the tsunami towers over then, the flames lick their roofs etc. Said this for a long time. And also the only way to do this quickly and efficiently now is to declare martial law and putting us on a war footing with rationing and so forth until a new rebalanced equilibrium in favour of the planet is set. We waste so much. We consume too much. We’re selfish. Narcissistic. In denial. We need not worry about going to hell. Because Hell is coming to us, quite literally.

Stop having children
Stop long haul flights
Eat less meat or even stop altogether
Lobby your politicians

And DON’T just sit their snipping and sneering about how it’s unrealistic, other countries are worse blah blah blah. Take some bloody responsibility yourself. Walk to the shop for that pint of milk or plan your life better so that you pick it up in route instead of jumping in the car because you forgot. Reuse those Amazon outers for sending your own parcels. Take containers to the shops to put loose foods in, instead of buying everything in shrink wrap. Get a soda stream and stop buying carbonated water or soft drinks in plastic bottles. Stop walking round your house in a t shirt complaining it’s cold and turning up the heating, stick a jumper on instead!! There are so many little things we can all do to cut the ridiculous levels of waste and consumption we have. Car share. Get up 10mins earlier and get a bus. Re evaluate where you work and see if you can’t find somewhere that doesn’t involve 60mins in the car. Or once a week trips the length of the country. Literally loads of things we can all do to reduce our carbon footprint.

Martial law?? LOL

 

[Seagull27]

You believe that human beings are causing the planet's climate to change. Just say that, and don't say that you know it, because you don't. That's all I am asking.

I want a clean environment, I want ecosystems and species saved from the harmful effects of human activity. I just don't want manipulation and a society of people who are unwilling to test what they believe and unwilling to be careful about what they say. We can solve problems if we face them honestly and truthfully, but we will have significant other problems if we find ourselves unable or unwilling to do that.

What evidence would you need to convince you to change 'believe' into 'know'? Because the evidence is there, as far as any scientific theory:

- we can prove that there is a sharp increase in atmospheric CO2 since the industrial revolution

- we can prove that the extra CO2 comes from fossil fuel sources

- we can see an unmistakeable correlation between that extra CO2 and a rise in global temperatures

- yes the climate changes naturally, and yes CO2 levels and temperatures have been much higher and lower than they are currently - that's not the problem. It's the RATE of change of both of these that is worrying, we've never seem anything near the rate of change of CO2 or temperature in thousands of years (which, again, we can prove).

I commend you for your open-mindedness on this as people should always question. But what other conclusion can you seriously draw from all of the evidence we have?

 

[Seagull27]

Apart from putting out the recycling every fortnight, I really don't know what else people can and are expected to do.

I agree with you here somewhat (and thanks to [MENTION=16091]BrickTamland[/MENTION] for giving some good suggestions on what people can do) - to an extent we are helpless as individuals as to what we can actually do as our individual impact is so tiny compared to big organisations and governments. But this is the reason why people are protesting! They feel there's only so much they can do on their own and the government need to take actions to make real change. To get this to happen, the issue has to get more publicity and get more people behind it, to vote in parties who support policies that will deal with it.

We can't just go on having all parties mention it as a side note in their manifestos, committing to relatively feeble measures, just to make them look 'green'. We need large scale change now and it needs to come from governments.

 

[The Clamp]

That is such an empty statement. There is no evidence which demonstrates scientifically that humans are changing the climate. It isn't actually possible to prove it. There isn't enough data because in relative terms humans haven't been around long enough. Climate trends span thousands of years. Our impact can only be presumed to start after the industrial revolution. So we don't know, and we can't know, whether changing trends in the climate have something to do with us, are a result of something else, or are part of a natural cycle.

There is no evidence. There is consensus, but it's not based on evidence. It's based on politics and ideology and on emotion. I don't oppose environmentalism, I think people concerned about the evironment are right to be, and anyone who wants to make positive change for the better is a good person, no question.

Just don't manipulate and lie to do it. If you want to argue that we may be impacting the climate, and we should act as if we are, because perhaps we won't be able to prove it until it's too late - That would be an honest argument, in fact it used to be the argument that was made. It's called the precautionary principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle



Now environmentalists just lie, they say "we know" AND they call people who question them "deniers". They scare children into thinking the world will end and that human beings are "killing" the planet and they should be terrified and nothing is getting better.

I'm sorry but the ends do not justify the means. Environmentalism would have so much more support if it was honest and careful about educating people and telling the truth. Instead it is using spin and politics (and the demonization of anyone who cares about the truth) and it's scaring, misinforming and manipulating children.

Those things are hurting the cause of environmentalism. People who oppose modern day environmentalism do so for these reasons, not because they don't care about the environment. You would be better of telling the truth, people don't respond well to attempts to manipulate them and lie to them.

(EDIT: To be fair most people aren't deliberately lying, they are all just believing each others misinformed opinions. Everyone just repeats "all the evidence shows" without knowing what that means. Safe in the knowledge that everyone else seems to agree. I just care about the truth and people being properly educated and thinking things through thoroughly for themselves. That's what you need to be able to do to have any chance of solving problems.)

We know human activity is destroying ecosystems. We know it is changing the climate. To believe otherwise is stupidity of the highest order.

 

[nicko31]

It depends what your solutions are, but you will likely come up with poor solutions or not think them through carefully if you have the diagnosis wrong.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/basics/groupthink

Do you think we should do anything at all?

Is there anyone in the public domain you think he a good handle on the current situation and we should listen to?

 

[dingodan]

What evidence would you need to convince you to change 'believe' into 'know'? Because the evidence is there, as far as any scientific theory:

- we can prove that there is a sharp increase in atmospheric CO2 since the industrial revolution

- we can prove that the extra CO2 comes from fossil fuel sources

- we can see an unmistakeable correlation between that extra CO2 and a rise in global temperatures

- yes the climate changes naturally, and yes CO2 levels and temperatures have been much higher and lower than they are currently - that's not the problem. It's the RATE of change of both of these that is worrying, we've never seem anything near the rate of change of CO2 or temperature in thousands of years (which, again, we can prove).

I commend you for your open-mindedness on this as people should always question. But what other conclusion can you seriously draw from all of the evidence we have?

It isn't possible to know. I have a bachelor of science and the very first thing I was taught was that correlation and causation are not the same thing, and you cannot infer one from the other.

The planets climate is more complicated than that, and my original point remains. I have never said, nor would I say, that a changing climate shouldn't be a concern. I take issue with one thing, presenting as fact something which is not.

The fact that I am unwilling to draw the certain conclusions you are drawing doesn't mean that we aren't on the same page. Stop polluting the air, I agree. Stop felling the rainforests, I agree. Stop polluting our oceans, I agree. I wish every success to people who want to effect positive change in our relationship with our planet.

When people are willing to concede that we do not fully understand the complexity of the climate, and that all opinions on the matter, all scientific data, all considerations have value and should not be ignored. When people are willing to concede that we need to be practical and balanced in our approach and our perspective. When people are willing to concede that consenus != evidence, and dissenting from popular opinion doesn't make you a moron or evil, then, and only then, will we have a chance at bringing people together and working through possible courses of action and solutions.

The attempts to "unite" us with a fierce insistence on an unproven consensus actually divides us. Humility would do a better job.