SASTA - what an absolute shower

[Buzzer]

I get the 6.57 up to St Pancras every day on the Thameslink and, in my opinion, the service is actually getting better. The new carriages are very welcome and unlike Southern, the Thameslink may often be slow but like some sort of East European rail service it gets there in most weathers. The biggest grind is the 45 minutes it takes to get from Blackfriars to East Croydon but I'm guessing speed restrictions are the reason for that.

 

[beorhthelm]

The nationalised service was far better. Faced between your typically head-in-the-sand reasoning, and Ernest's anecdotal experience of 20 years+ on the railways, I'll take his version explaining why the railways are so utterly pony these days, every single time.

I knew your post would be complete drivel from the opening sentence: "is it a major industry though?" Probably the biggest facepalm moment we'll read on here today.

not sure why so aggressive to a point of view, just because it doesnt agree with yours 100%. its not a major industry as in a substantial proportion of the economy. everyone says British Rail was crap, the nationalised network rail is responsible for most the problems, but people want to kid themselves everything will be rosey if we nationalised the ToC. whatever replaces southern isnt going to reduce the demand on BML and south London rail, though there will be enough drivers on cover.

 

[Buzzer]

not sure why so aggressive to a point of view, just because it doesnt agree with yours 100%. its not a major industry as in a substantial proportion of the economy. everyone says British Rail was crap, the nationalised network rail is responsible for most the problems, but people want to kid themselves everything will be rosey if we nationalised the ToC.

Something like 4 million people commute into London every day from outside the City and although I've no proof I reckon the vast majority come by train. It clearly is a major industry, well it is to me anyway. I'd agree with you that nationalising isn't necessarily the answer but the price we pay compared to the other major countries compared to the service we get does need urgent fixing.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

On a more positive note I lost my train ticket before returning from a game at the Amex to Dorset which went via Clapham Junction. I managed to get through the barrier at Brighton station with a wave of my match ticket to board a non stopping train to Clapham Junction......hardly part of the free travel zone.

I then got the train west and was finally apprehended at Woking by a ticket collector who accepted I had lost my return ticket as I was able to show him my outward ticket. Bit of a result really

 

[Ernest]

Ernest, serious question.

Do you think the solution is to renationalise the railway companies, or wholesale franchise cancellation and to start again with new companies.

It just seems to me for many years, the costs have gone up, delays and cancellations increased and staff moral has plummeted. I have a couple of mates , who work on the railways, live in Lewes and are just counting down the days until they can retire and they think that the general theory Is what is needed is some sort of government intervention. Trouble is that is just about creating more quangos.

Be interested to hear how you and beachy would change it being those on the coal face for so many years.

Before it was all sold off by Major and the Tories things were actually getting better, there was a thing called Organising for Quality and it was having results. Trouble is Major refused to listen to anyone and went ahead with the franchise model which as anyone knows has been a disaster.

The problem is that before privatisation nearly every manager in important positions had worked there way and got knowledge along the way and had people with them who knew what they were doing. No way would someone leave B & Q and start as a Train Crew supervisor the next day, they would have needed to work at the job from the bottom hence a lot of jobs being done by people with no experience and when things go wrong the panic sets in and headless chicken mode takes over.

If you renationalised now where would the leadership and knowledge come from ? Whatever is done in the future nothing will improve until the question of is profit or service the more important ? All the time profit is required money taken cannot be reinvested in infrastructure and training as shareholders come first.

 

[beorhthelm]

Something like 4 million people commute into London every day from outside the City and although I've no proof I reckon the vast majority come by train.

count the number of rush hour trains and numbers they carry, you'll be surprised how small a proportion is moving by rail. it is important, but its importance is magnified by those that use it. cue abuse, but i'm one of them and broadly agree on matters of poor service. if we want a nationalised service and have more subsidy, that has to be paid for by the 95% of the population that dont use the service, unlike most other areas ripe to be in national control.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

The ludicrous thing about the delay repay is the shoddy amount you actually get if you have a season ticket. £2.40 for a delay OVER 30 MINUTES is a joke. It also takes a good 5 minutes to fill out the fiddly online form. Dont even get me started on the speed of the journey, 1hr 5mins for EGR to LBG is pathetic, you could almost cycle there quicker if they just paved over the tracks. All is fine though when they apologise for the inconvenience caused Southern Rail are a shambles.

The journey time has got considerably slower since the new trains were brought in - longer dwell times at stations apparently. When we had the slam door stock, the journey time was 52 minutes from East Grinstead to both Victoria and London Bridge. There were also several fast trains in the rush hour that didn't stop between Oxted and at least Sanderstead or East Croydon. Those have all gone. With our line's dreadful reliability I have seriously considered going to Haywards Heath instead, even though I would have to pay nearly £200 a month extra (there is no point going to Three Bridges, as you can't park there), but have been put off as the car park there is £8 per day, rather than £5 at East Grinstead. £100 might be reasonable for the extra services that run from there, but £200 - really? It is only another 8 miles further from London than East Grinstead.

not sure why so aggressive to a point of view, just because it doesnt agree with yours 100%. its not a major industry as in a substantial proportion of the economy. everyone says British Rail was crap, the nationalised network rail is responsible for most the problems, but people want to kid themselves everything will be rosey if we nationalised the ToC. whatever replaces southern isnt going to reduce the demand on BML and south London rail, though there will be enough drivers on cover.

British Rail ran with the lowest subsidy in Europe, and was widely considered one of the most efficient railways in the world. No, it wasn't perfect, but when it got things right it was up there with the best. Sure, we didn't have all the TGV and ICE trains that the Continent has, but the Inter City 125 was the envy of the world when built. Services to the West Country were excellent, at least in my experience. It was not necessarily privatisation itself that was the big mistake - Barry Doe, a leading railway expert, felt a BR PLC should have been formed, and it has largely been successful in Japan (though pressure on staff there is exceptionally intense). The great error was the botched way in which it was done. Operations and infrastructure should never have been split. I am a Tory voter, but this was the biggest mistake the government of 1992 to 1997 made in my view.

 

[Buzzer]

count the number of rush hour trains and numbers they carry, you'll be surprised how small a proportion is moving by rail. it is important, but its importance is magnified by those that use it. cue abuse, but i'm one of them and broadly agree on matters of poor service. if we want a nationalised service and have more subsidy, that has to be paid for by the 95% of the population that dont use the service, unlike most other areas ripe to be in national control.

I'm not sure it is that small a proportion - unless I'm misunderstanding you.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/466412/rail-passengers-crowding-2014.pdf

 

[ForestRowSeagull]

The journey time has got considerably slower since the new trains were brought in - longer dwell times at stations apparently. When we had the slam door stock, the journey time was 52 minutes from East Grinstead to both Victoria and London Bridge. There were also several fast trains in the rush hour that didn't stop between Oxted and at least Sanderstead or East Croydon. Those have all gone. With our line's dreadful reliability I have seriously considered going to Haywards Heath instead, even though I would have to pay nearly £200 a month extra (there is no point going to Three Bridges, as you can't park there), but have been put off as the car park there is £8 per day, rather than £5 at East Grinstead. £100 might be reasonable for the extra services that run from there, but £200 - really? It is only another 8 miles further from London than East Grinstead.



British Rail ran with the lowest subsidy in Europe, and was widely considered one of the most efficient railways in the world. No, it wasn't perfect, but when it got things right it was up there with the best. Sure, we didn't have all the TGV and ICE trains that the Continent has, but the Inter City 125 was the envy of the world when built. Services to the West Country were excellent, at least in my experience. It was not necessarily privatisation itself that was the big mistake - Barry Doe, a leading railway expert, felt a BR PLC should have been formed, and it has largely been successful in Japan (though pressure on staff there is exceptionally intense). The great error was the botched way in which it was done. Operations and infrastructure should never have been split. I am a Tory voter, but this was the biggest mistake the government of 1992 to 1997 made in my view.

Unbelievable isnt it. 13 minutes longer journey time, more expensive and less reliable. Top progress! As you point out thats ignoring the fast service we used to get. The whole EGR to LBG service is laughable at times..

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm not sure it is that small a proportion - unless I'm misunderstanding you.

in my original point I was thinking of commuters from outside of London, its a couple hundred thousand.

 

[Rugrat]

At Brighton station now, 3 trains cancelled due to lack of staff.

Well they have to have a Xmas too don't you know

 

[Buzzer]

in my original point I was thinking of commuters from outside of London, its a couple hundred thousand.

The latest figures I can find are from 2011 in a 2014 report:

Net commuting inflow from the rest of England and Wales to London was 519,000 in 2011 up seven percent since 2001.

https://londondatastore-upload.s3.amazonaws.com/Zho=ttw-flows.pdf

I should imagine that number is now nearer 600,000 and although I've no proof, I'm going to say the vast majority travelled by train. And this is just London. When you add in all the other commuters into every other town and city in the UK then we're surely talking about over a million people a day, aren't we?

 

[Simster]

not sure why so aggressive to a point of view, just because it doesnt agree with yours 100%.

Apologies. But I do get a little tired of the modus operandi where you shrug your shoulders and say "I don't see the problem" to pretty much every problem. Asking whether the trains are a major industry is just dumb - of course it is. Even if it's not in terms of turnover, it certainly is a significant part of the national transport network, which of course is so important that there is a ministry to handle it.

 

[Ernest]

At Brighton station now, 3 trains cancelled due to lack of staff.

Well they have to have a Xmas too don't you know

You can't have a lack of staff if they don't exist in the first place, maybe Southern should have said this train is cancelled due to our incompetence in not employing enough staff to run the trains

 

[Simster]

You can't have a lack of staff if they don't exist in the first place, maybe Southern should have said this train is cancelled due to our incompetence in not employing enough staff to run the trains

Quite.
[MENTION=18774]Rugrat[/MENTION], you really need to read the press release I linked to earlier:
http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/train-crew-recruitment

It really is quite outrageous.

 

[Rugrat]

which of course is so important that there is a ministry to handle it.

Like many central government offices, they are doing a fine job too

You can't have a lack of staff if they don't exist in the first place, maybe Southern should have said this train is cancelled due to our incompetence in not employing enough staff to run the trains

There are now 3 coastway east trains piled up and no room for more

 

[Carrot Cruncher]

I still find it disgusting that ALL the TOCs charge full whack for the half-arsed service between Christmas and the new year.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Not about Southern but Heathrow Express. Coming back to the UK at Christmas and needed to use the H Ex on the 27th. Went to their site to book a ticket only to find they are shut between 25th and 28th. Not a real big deal I suppose as I was able to get a seat with National Express instead. I generally avoid Heathrow like the plague if I can but it is still the major gateway for visitors flying in or out of London and will no doubt piss off a lot of tourists who will end up on the wanky Piccadilly line. Not a great advert for UK plc really.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Not about Southern but Heathrow Express. Coming back to the UK at Christmas and needed to use the H Ex on the 27th. Went to their site to book a ticket only to find they are shut between 25th and 28th. Not a real big deal I suppose as I was able to get a seat with National Express instead. I generally avoid Heathrow like the plague if I can but it is still the major gateway for visitors flying in or out of London and will no doubt piss off a lot of tourists who will end up on the wanky Piccadilly line. Not a great advert for UK plc really.

I think that is also that Gatwick is closed to rail traffic due to renewals .

 

[Beach Hut]

I think that is also that Gatwick is closed to rail traffic due to renewals .

Indeed no mainline service from Brighton to London after shutdown on the 24th December till 04th January - I would avoid commuting that day as it will no doubt be an epic fail