SASTA - what an absolute shower

[mikeyjh]

My most recent experience of rail travel with Southern was for the QPR game when signals failures and staff shortages due to sickness were cited as the causes of the delays. It was not an experience I would wish to repeat and my sympathies go out to all those of you who have to use the "services" of this company to get to work. I can only imagine what it must be like - even on a good day I would imagine the peak hour trains are uncomfortable, hot and overcrowded - but on a bad day ......................... and you pay them £5k pa for the privilege

That one is basically a lie - Sickness happens, they don't have enough people rostered to cover for it, end of.

 

[lost in london]

And that's another thing:

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/train-crew-recruitment

How many other companies send out shitty press releases like that because they haven't got enough people to provide the service they're paid to do? We're short staffed here at my firm. We just have to work harder and if we can't recruit the right people, the management are accountable to further up the food chain to explain why not. This sort of thing at SASTA is an utter joke.

Grade A bullshit:

"a more consistent service" - I bet they thought very carefully over those words, not a better service, not a more pleasant service or a more reliable, just consistently average.

And as you say, why the hell do they think they are any different to any other company? This is surely something every company has had to deal with for eternity - why do we need to bear with them? Annual leave and staff leaving aren't modern concepts!

 

[dazzer6666]

I have never understood why it is not possible to buy season tickets early, they have a start and end date, and clearly are not valid before the start date so what is the problem in issuing early at anytime of the year.

It is in some cases - we get my son's season ticket (usually half a term) for college in Brighton weeks in advance online and it's posted out.

I go into London 2-3 days a week typically. The service is deteriorating. My usual 6.04am Brighton to London Bridge (from Wivelsfield for me) is getting cancelled more regularly, and the incidence of signal problems or other issues in the evening seems to be growing.

The cost is awful. Because of my intermittent travelling and home working a season ticket isn't viable so I either get a weekly ticket at £120 or a daily return at £48.50

 

[Czechmate]

My wife travels to London Bridge once , sometimes twice a week , most times there are delays/cancellations signal works etc , and also a lot of times she can't sit down all the way back to Hove . It's fine spending all this money on London Bridge station but what's the point when the infrastructure to get you there in the first place is a terrible state .

She has been offered many jobs at London banks with a lot more money , but the two things that put her off are the trips to London by train and the selfish greedy people at the banks who couldn't give two hoots about anybody but themselves !

Anyway what i am trying to say is that London City companies are losing out on talented people because of the trains as i am sure my wife is not the only one in this situation , so for now Hove is the best option !

 

[Sussex Nomad]

And that's another thing:

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/train-crew-recruitment

How many other companies send out shitty press releases like that because they haven't got enough people to provide the service they're paid to do? We're short staffed here at my firm. We just have to work harder and if we can't recruit the right people, the management are accountable to further up the food chain to explain why not. This sort of thing at SASTA is an utter joke.

That announcement is shocking.

 

[Chicken Run]

I think we all know that "Southern Are Sorry To Announce" are undoubtedly the worst company in the country. They are utterly utterly terrible. Words cannot describe just how terrible they are. My 7:23 Redhill to Vic, for example, has been cancelled five times in five weeks. In that same time frame, it has also had fewer carriages than the designated 12 on 3 occasions (it once turned up with just four carriages) and today was ten minutes late. Ten minutes? It only actually started 7 miles down the line FFS.

But oddly enough, this isn't a rant about the dreadful train service they provide. It's about customer service. I just felt this snippet from the local Facebook rail group about something that happened last night and I think deserves a wider audience:



I thought improved customer service was one of the benefits of privatisation? I guess that's put that one to bed.

Absolutely shocking and doesn't surprise me, however re nationalisation won't improve customer services, I'm old enough to remember the shower that was BR, what was the phrase, "we'll get you there"

 

[Sussex Nomad]

As a result, there continues to be a risk of cancellations, in particular during periods of high annual leave – but we are steadily overcoming this. In the meantime we will continue to keep you informed of any possible cancellations via our station screens, app and website.

So if you have a 20 min walk from home to say Ifield, I live a few from it, and it's raining and there is basically no roof cover at this station, you have to wait possibly half hour getting soaked through for the next train, which will be doubly packed because the first one never turned up, plus paying maybe 4k for the pleasure and having to make up the time at work? Absolute shambles.

 

[Simster]

Absolutely shocking and doesn't surprise me, however re nationalisation won't improve customer services, I'm old enough to remember the shower that was BR, what was the phrase, "we'll get you there"

I do agree with you completely, but in my view it should follow that any public service should be in state hands unless the market is sufficiently competitive to drive down prices and improve customer service. Quite clearly, that isn't happening with the trains so I'd suggest it was far better in public hands for the following reasons to allow the government of the day to plan a coherent national transport policy.

The only case I can make for privatised railways is that private companies tend to have better cost control. But really, is that enough to forgo national ownership of a major industry like the railways?

 

[alfredmizen]

Absolutely shocking and doesn't surprise me, however re nationalisation won't improve customer services, I'm old enough to remember the shower that was BR, what was the phrase, "we'll get you there"

I can remember British Rail as well, I may be wrong but I'm sure the service was nowhere near as bad as it is now , you cant run a decent rail service without state subsidies , even the americans realise that , amtrak is subsidised.

 

[Ernest]

I take it the lack of train crew is down to Southern doing it on the cheap and not having enough people to cover sickness and people using up leave at the end of the year? Anyone know the reasons behind it?
.

Basically it is as you put it. Each depot has an establishment number of crew, drivers and conductors needed to work that depot's booked diagrams and also cover for leave, sickness, training and anything else that might take the driver or conductor off of their booked duty.

All Southern train crew depots for years have relied on train crew working their days off and overtime as no depot has the correct number of drivers or conductors fully operational to be able to cover that depot's booked work.

The problem is now especially for drivers that each driver they take on and train which takes up to a year to do only has what is called core route knowledge which is the basic routes for each depot. Brighton for example a new driver would only go west as far as Littlehampton, east to Hastings and on the main line as far as Haywards Heath. There is now a waiting list which will take years to clear for drivers to learn the correct route knowledge as there is nobody to cover their work as they do so. This is why you see trains cancelled short or start short as the crews they have don't sign the route beyond that point.

Another major problem is the diagram that each crew work to and have been for years are so tight that there is no room for late running, for example a driver has 5/10 minutes from arriving on one train to crossing the station to get on his next train so if it's late coming in the departure of the next is late. Or even worse he arrives and has a small time for his next working which is travel passenger to his next train at a station up the line such as Haywards Heath, he arrives late thus missing his train to Haywards Heath so no driver for the train there. All because the people who compile the diagrams try to save money by cramming as much work as they can into each individual job to save money.

Another thing is that every new management does a reorganisation which basically involves people who have been railwaymen for years and know exactly how to run the trains, organise train crew and other staff and keep the job going are moved on and people from outside are brought in as they can spout whatever corporate bullshit is the in thing. A guy who was organising the station staff, ticket office staff etc working and was doing it for years was all of a sudden downgraded, salary cut and in the end decided to leave, so you had 30+ years of experience gone and the new person brought in doesn't have a clue thus a shambles occurs but it has saved money. [MENTION=38]Beach Hut[/MENTION] knows exactly who I am talking about, this guy was taking work home, doing things in his own time, doing far more hours than he was paid to do to do his job properly and his reward was to be treated like shit.

When I was organising and rostering conductors on the coast for a couple of years there was never one train of mine cancelled because of not having a conductor but it takes years of knowledge and experience to be able to do so as well as a personal rapport which can only be built up over years. This doesn't happen now, all that matters is either cutting costs or being able to speak corporately.

The last thing is that because of a multitude of things morale amongst staff has hit rock bottom hence the Conductors voting to strike and other industrial relations problems, when trains run late or when there is disruption it takes goodwill between staff and management to keep the trains running, that goodwill has now gone hence the current problems.

 

[beorhthelm]

The only case I can make for privatised railways is that private companies tend to have better cost control. But really, is that enough to forgo national ownership of a major industry like the railways?

is it really a major industry though? it certainly has strategic value, however for the most part it serves to provide a subsidied transport for a few 10's thousand of us middle class office workers to get to work from their nice homes in the country. i soak up the cost as its still cheaper and far less stress than driving to London, but then i get a seat every day. Southern's communication is beyond belief but majority issues i experience are from the National Rail part, signals and power failures. end of the day the main case for private ToC is that it keeps some of the costs off the public debt, on service it may be poor but the nationalised rail was no better, is no better.

 

[Beach Hut]

Fear not they have an improvement plan in place..........

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/performance-results/performance-improvement-plan/

Oh and Ernest is right about a mate of mine, ground down by years of taking the piss

 

[Simster]

is it really a major industry though? it certainly has strategic value, however for the most part it serves to provide a subsidied transport for a few 10's thousand of us middle class office workers to get to work from their nice homes in the country. i soak up the cost as its still cheaper and far less stress than driving to London, but then i get a seat every day. Southern's communication is beyond belief but majority issues i experience are from the National Rail part, signals and power failures. end of the day the main case for private ToC is that it keeps some of the costs off the public debt, on service it may be poor but the nationalised rail was no better, is no better.

The nationalised service was far better. Faced between your typically head-in-the-sand reasoning, and Ernest's anecdotal experience of 20 years+ on the railways, I'll take his version explaining why the railways are so utterly pony these days, every single time.

I knew your post would be complete drivel from the opening sentence: "is it a major industry though?" Probably the biggest facepalm moment we'll read on here today.

 

[El Presidente]

Phew. I read this initially as SANTA was an absolute shower, and was fearing the the Scandinavian box set I was hoping for on Christmas Day might not arrive, should the big man with the sleigh not turn up.

 

[Easy 10]

Basically it is as you put it. Each depot has an establishment number of crew, drivers and conductors needed to work that depot's booked diagrams and also cover for leave, sickness, training and anything else that might take the driver or conductor off of their booked duty.

All Southern train crew depots for years have relied on train crew working their days off and overtime as no depot has the correct number of drivers or conductors fully operational to be able to cover that depot's booked work.

The problem is now especially for drivers that each driver they take on and train which takes up to a year to do only has what is called core route knowledge which is the basic routes for each depot. Brighton for example a new driver would only go west as far as Littlehampton, east to Hastings and on the main line as far as Haywards Heath. There is now a waiting list which will take years to clear for drivers to learn the correct route knowledge as there is nobody to cover their work as they do so. This is why you see trains cancelled short or start short as the crews they have don't sign the route beyond that point.

Another major problem is the diagram that each crew work to and have been for years are so tight that there is no room for late running, for example a driver has 5/10 minutes from arriving on one train to crossing the station to get on his next train so if it's late coming in the departure of the next is late. Or even worse he arrives and has a small time for his next working which is travel passenger to his next train at a station up the line such as Haywards Heath, he arrives late thus missing his train to Haywards Heath so no driver for the train there. All because the people who compile the diagrams try to save money by cramming as much work as they can into each individual job to save money.

Another thing is that every new management does a reorganisation which basically involves people who have been railwaymen for years and know exactly how to run the trains, organise train crew and other staff and keep the job going are moved on and people from outside are brought in as they can spout whatever corporate bullshit is the in thing. A guy who was organising the station staff, ticket office staff etc working and was doing it for years was all of a sudden downgraded, salary cut and in the end decided to leave, so you had 30+ years of experience gone and the new person brought in doesn't have a clue thus a shambles occurs but it has saved money. [MENTION=38]Beach Hut[/MENTION] knows exactly who I am talking about, this guy was taking work home, doing things in his own time, doing far more hours than he was paid to do to do his job properly and his reward was to be treated like shit.

When I was organising and rostering conductors on the coast for a couple of years there was never one train of mine cancelled because of not having a conductor but it takes years of knowledge and experience to be able to do so as well as a personal rapport which can only be built up over years. This doesn't happen now, all that matters is either cutting costs or being able to speak corporately.

The last thing is that because of a multitude of things morale amongst staff has hit rock bottom hence the Conductors voting to strike and other industrial relations problems, when trains run late or when there is disruption it takes goodwill between staff and management to keep the trains running, that goodwill has now gone hence the current problems.

But APART from that...

 

[Westdene Seagull]

My most recent experience of rail travel with Southern was for the QPR game when signals failures and staff shortages due to sickness were cited as the causes of the delays. It was not an experience I would wish to repeat and my sympathies go out to all those of you who have to use the "services" of this company to get to work. I can only imagine what it must be like - even on a good day I would imagine the peak hour trains are uncomfortable, hot and overcrowded - but on a bad day ......................... and you pay them £5k pa for the privilege

And it is that very reason I'll avoided going to London my whole career and instead taken a lower salary to work in Sussex. The hassle and disruption to family life just isn't worth it.

 

[ForestRowSeagull]

The ludicrous thing about the delay repay is the shoddy amount you actually get if you have a season ticket. £2.40 for a delay OVER 30 MINUTES is a joke. It also takes a good 5 minutes to fill out the fiddly online form. Dont even get me started on the speed of the journey, 1hr 5mins for EGR to LBG is pathetic, you could almost cycle there quicker if they just paved over the tracks. All is fine though when they apologise for the inconvenience caused Southern Rail are a shambles.

 

[Goldstone1976]

#blameStockdale

#BarberOut

 

[Dave the OAP]

Ernest, serious question.

Do you think the solution is to renationalise the railway companies, or wholesale franchise cancellation and to start again with new companies.

It just seems to me for many years, the costs have gone up, delays and cancellations increased and staff moral has plummeted. I have a couple of mates , who work on the railways, live in Lewes and are just counting down the days until they can retire and they think that the general theory Is what is needed is some sort of government intervention. Trouble is that is just about creating more quangos.

Be interested to hear how you and beachy would change it being those on the coal face for so many years.

 

[CPFC G]

Thanks Ernest, Very interesting.