Russian Siege Over

[Theatre of Trees]

So on that basis you reduce yourself to the level of that perpetrator. Terrorists are extremists whose cause often overides any ethical or moral considerations. Yet where do these people come from? I don't think it is sympathy to try and understand where these people come from. If people in Chechenia and Palestine were allowed to get on with their lives without brutal interference from the armed state agencies of Russia and Israel perhaps the well of support for acts of terrorism may shrink to a degree that the small percentage of real evil nutcases would cease their efforts. If your home or business has been destroyed, your means of livelihood and aspirations reduced what have you got to lose for joining up or supporting terrorists who promise to help you get your own back on those who have ruined your lives.

To a degree London Irish is correct in saying that Putin has been incredibly cynical in using this as a means of making your choose sides between the Russian government and Chechen (or Al-Qaaeda) terrorism. Reading through the papaer this morning it appears that this was a botched job by both sides, both terrorists and those trying to deal with the situation appear to have been incredibly amateurish. There was only ever going to be one loser in this situation and that was the hostages. Sadly the nature of this siege suggests it won't be the last one.

 

[Richard Whiteley]

It sickens me to see innocents like those children become the victims of such horrific violence

It also depresses me to read someone like Gareth Glover get so worked up by this whilst not giving a flying f*** about innocent Iraqi kids, women and men getting blown up the past year or so.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Richard

What have you done and what do you propose I do to protect people 4000 miles away

Also were you so concern when Hussein killed the Iraqi's or is it just the USA ?.

 

[Sorrel]

Terrorists are extremists whose cause often overides any ethical or moral considerations. Yet where do these people come from? I don't think it is sympathy to try and understand where these people come from. If people in Chechenia and Palestine were allowed to get on with their lives without brutal interference from the armed state agencies of Russia and Israel perhaps the well of support for acts of terrorism may shrink to a degree that the small percentage of real evil nutcases would cease their efforts

I understand the point, but I feel you can always talk round in circles seeing the motivations of various conflicts. You could do it for years, and still sit on the fence, and nothing would change.

Now I think I understand why Tony Blair went along with the American war on Iraq. He saw Saddam as a dictator who caused countless deaths (irrelevant of how he came to be such a dictator), and knew that doing something would be better than nothing. Of course many things went wrong in the war, and afterwards, but I think now that action that's intended to be a force for good can sometimes be better than prevaricating and doing nothing. It may not be the best solution of all, but it now seems more admirable than letting things be.

 

[London Irish]

I really can't believe some of the ranting on this thread posted since yesterday, quite a few of it seemingly implying that I supported the slaughter! Unbelievable!

The political and cultural level of NSC seems abysmally low when it comes to examining complex national struggles, such as this one between the Chechens and the Russians.

And whoever asked the question, yes, I think independence for Chechnya is the only way forward.

But maybe Gareth Glover's torture and sadism also offers a beacon of hope, who knows.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Carpenters back Saturday LI

 

[London Irish]

Of course many things went wrong in the war, and afterwards, but I think now that action that's intended to be a force for good can sometimes be better than prevaricating and doing nothing. It may not be the best solution of all, but it now seems more admirable than letting things be.

12,000 Iraqis killed since the illegal occupation

1,000 coalition troops killed since the illegal occupation

Iraq currently teetering on the brink of civil war, just averted in the last couple of weeks by the intervention of a Shia cleric travelling back from Europe after a medical operation.

If that civil war breaks out, and we are currently in a stalemate period, many more thousands of Iraqis will die.

 

[Safeway]

I really can't believe some of the ranting on this thread posted since yesterday, quite a few of it seemingly implying that I supported the slaughter! Unbelievable!

The political and cultural level of NSC seems abysmally low when it comes to examining complex national struggles, such as this one between the Chechens and the Russians.

Well, this is a FOOTBALL board.

 

[El Presidente]

Well, this is a FOOTBALL board.

Too right, for detailed political and cultural debate, go to www.northstandpolls.com

 

[DJ Leon]

I really can't believe some of the ranting on this thread posted since yesterday, quite a few of it seemingly implying that I supported the slaughter! Unbelievable!

The political and cultural level of NSC seems abysmally low when it comes to examining complex national struggles, such as this one between the Chechens and the Russians.

And whoever asked the question, yes, I think independence for Chechnya is the only way forward.

But maybe Gareth Glover's torture and sadism also offers a beacon of hope, who knows.

So true - you have been the only one to provide a coherant, educated argument haven't you? My God, you're arrogant.

I think you will find that no-one has suggested you supported the slaughter. You are one of the few though that has concentrated on why these people did what they did. Everyone else has concentrated on the simple fact that there is no JUSTIFICATION (not REASON) for this happening. As you will have read from my earlier posts, I think that the latter approach is quite a good way of combatting terrorism/immoral actions (and yes, that means that we should have done the same for the behaviour of the Russians in Chechnya, the US and Allies in Iraq etc). It is surely not hard to see why those expressing outrage at these acts might be just a tad pissed off by your 'well, they had it coming' lecturing.

Is that OK? Or am I being way to SIMPLISTIC?

 

[m20gull]

There is no such thing as "evil", appalling political circumstances usually are behind appalling acts such as this bloodbath. This is not an excuse, as weak-minded people might think, but a plea to understand the political conflicts and to address a political process that can somehow reconcile the Russians and the Chechens.

Bother my PC has lost the stuff I typed. I won't try to retype it all as I'll only get annoyed if it disappears again.

This is the bit I meant to quote.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Li - there is no such thing as evil.

600 people die, over 300 children, many children were systematically raped befoe they were murdered. The terorists knew all along they would try and kill ALL 850 children.

One kid was shot 46 times in the back.

But LI there is no thing as evil.

Still as LI says they only did it because of a political problem.

This thread is about people being appalled and sickened by this but you try and rationalise it.

My torture is kept for the arrested terrorists. What would you do invite them for a coffee and a chat I suppose.

I don't think from reading this thread that I am the only one pissed off with your arrogance and superiority complex.

 

[London Irish]

(and yes, that means that we should have done the same for the behaviour of the Russians in Chechnya

Wonderful. Then perhaps you can show me one of your many NSC posts objecting to countless acts of genocide that Russia has carried out in Chechnya over the past few years.

Or are you one of these people who only discover the value of human life when western TV cameras film it?

 

[London Irish]

This thread is about people being appalled and sickened by this

Indeed, that is precisely what this thread is all about. Those emotions, however, might make NSC people adjust to the pyschological horror of watching those TV pictures and reading those terrible newspaper accounts, but will not draw closer by one day that moment when this national conflict between the Chechens and Russians is resolved. Expect more corpses pretty soon, particularly if Putin uses this incident to intensify his genocidal policies in Chechnya.

Freedom and independence for Chechnya is what everyone should be demanding now. International pressure should be built on Putin to end his systematic slaughter campaign in that country (and no, sadly, not much of that made the BBC nine o'clock news).

 

[dougdeep]

It said on the news this morning that none of the terrorists were Chechens.

 

[CHAPPERS]

''Nearly 370 people died in the bloodbath that ended the siege, after pro-Chechen gunmen took over the school''

That's from the BBC, where did you hear otherwise??

 

[DJ Leon]

Wonderful. Then perhaps you can show me one of your many NSC posts objecting to countless acts of genocide that Russia has carried out in Chechnya over the past few years.

Or are you one of these people who only discover the value of human life when western TV cameras film it?

WTF! What's the matter with you? Can you not say anything without making an accusation designed to prove your superiority.

If a thread had been started on this subject I might have contributed to it. Why are so obsessed with the actions of one side? Why are so firmly in one camp? And can't you see how that makes you look to others? (rightly or wrongly)

Oh, and yes, I am as you suggest one of those fools. What a naive, ignorant idiot I am. I tell you what I won't pollute you any longer with my stupidity. Silly old me.

 

[dougdeep]

I.T.V. early this morning, I just think this whole thing was organised by a larger terrorist group. I think pro-chechen covers most of the planet.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

LI - You need to take your head from out of your backside and stop taking yourself so bloody seriously.

You are the same as everyone else on here, a mere speck of dust flying around the cosmos trying to make sense of the world around us.

 

[dougdeep]

LI - You need to take your head from out of your backside and stop taking yourself so bloody seriously.

You are the same as everyone else on here, a mere speck of dust flying around the cosmos trying to make sense of the world around us.

Too deep, even for me. Goodnight.