Russian jet shot down ,WW3 about to begin ?

[symyjym]

Are you talking about something from the Quran or Rushdie's book, and how does it destroy Islam?

Rushdies book is based on contradiction in the Quran which would make Muhammad a false prophet. In order to win support from pagans who believed in 3 goddesses, he told them that they were the daughters of God then later retracted it saying that God forgave him for speaking the devils words because all previous prophets have lied about things before. This includeds Noah, Moses and Jesus.

The Abrahmic religions are based on one God, Monotheism, but he promoted Polytheism to gain support. I believe they have always been called the Satanic Verses and it is not just the name of the book.

This video gives a good summary on how this incident played out;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=simYXJ2vigQ

 

[Triggaaar]

Rushdies book is based on contradiction in the Quran which would make Muhammad a false prophet. In order to win support from pagans who believed in 3 goddesses, he told them that they were the daughters of God then later retracted it saying that God forgave him for speaking the devils words

Yes, I understood that Muhammed said that the devil tricked him. Excuse my ignorance, but how does that prove he was a false profit, any more than we know Jesus wasn't?

My understanding was that the Jews (like Jesus) believed someone could only be a prophet if they united all of mankind, which is one reason why they did not believe Jesus was a profit.

 

[Geestar]

Wouldn't it be WONDERFUL if we went to war because the Turks shot a Ruskie aeroplane thousands of miles away?

Because that is the only reason....

 

[symyjym]

Yes, I understood that Muhammed said that the devil tricked him. Excuse my ignorance, but how does that prove he was a false profit, any more than we know Jesus wasn't?

My understanding was that the Jews (like Jesus) believed someone could only be a prophet if they united all of mankind, which is one reason why they did not believe Jesus was a profit.

I know I'm not going to explain it well but here goes.

Judaism believe in the Torah, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses and Abraham but not Jesus being a prophet.

Christians believe in the Torah, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham and Jesus, but not Mohammad being a prophet. (Though Islam thinks that Jesus did not die on the cross and that God replaced Jesus with someone else)

Islam believe in the Torah, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad.

Islam endorses the Torah, and in it it says something like; If anyone uses the Devils words they should be stoned to death. Muhammad to excuse his religious crime said that God told him “It’s ok, other Prophets have also used the Devils words at some points. So it is ok to lie if needs be.

Once a person lies it undermines everything else he says and therefore none of it can be asserted as true, therefore they are a false Prophet in the words of the Torah, which Islam is based on.

I think the video explains this better than myself though, but as someone who is atheist I see Jesus as someone of principle, a reformer of old ways, never lied for personal gain and got crucified for modern thoughts. Muhammad on the other hand was a mad attention seeker, lied to get his way, fell ill and died peacefully in his sleep. Whether one believes in God or not Jesus was more in touch with what people believe God to be, was a true martyr of his day, and his life does not contradict the Torah, but Muhammad implied that Jesus probably lied too, and Noah, Moses and Abraham etc which brings the whole Abrahamic religion into conflict.

I suppose if Christianity unite's mankind, Judaism would have to accept Jesus as a Prophet. You never know, long after we are gone Jesus might unite the world even if it is just following his philosophy.

 

[heathgate]

I know I'm not going to explain it well but here goes.

Judaism believe in the Torah, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses and Abraham but not Jesus being a prophet.

Christians believe in the Torah, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham and Jesus, but not Mohammad being a prophet. (Though Islam thinks that Jesus did not die on the cross and that God replaced Jesus with someone else)

Islam believe in the Torah, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad.

Islam endorses the Torah, and in it it says something like; If anyone uses the Devils words they should be stoned to death. Muhammad to excuse his religious crime said that God told him “It’s ok, other Prophets have also used the Devils words at some points. So it is ok to lie if needs be.

Once a person lies it undermines everything else he says and therefore none of it can be asserted as true, therefore they are a false Prophet in the words of the Torah, which Islam is based on.

I think the video explains this better than myself though, but as someone who is atheist I see Jesus as someone of principle, a reformer of old ways, never lied for personal gain and got crucified for modern thoughts. Muhammad on the other hand was a mad attention seeker, lied to get his way, fell ill and died peacefully in his sleep. Whether one believes in God or not Jesus was more in touch with what people believe God to be, was a true martyr of his day, and his life does not contradict the Torah, but Muhammad implied that Jesus probably lied too, and Noah, Moses and Abraham etc which brings the whole Abrahamic religion into conflict.

I suppose if Christianity unite's mankind, Judaism would have to accept Jesus as a Prophet. You never know, long after we are gone Jesus might unite the world even if it is just following his philosophy.

As I saw written recently....."Religious conflict is about my imaginary friend being better than your imaginary friend"

 

[Surf's Up]

eeeees complicayted, no?

 

[scamander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks
sums it up for me

 

[symyjym]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks
sums it up for me

Yep. It's like Jesus spent his life rejecting the strict old ways and teaching the new, and got crucified for it, then Muhammad came along and reverted back to the strict old ways.

Even as atheist I think I have an understanding of the purpose of the real Jesus mission now that Islam has forced us to question religion. Forget about the God bit, Jesus the man, only preached peace and understanding. Muhammad, from what I can make out, promotes, lying, cheating and killing the kuffar if one believes there are mitigating circumstances to do so.

 

[Igzilla]

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Islam is a totally insane religion ( among a whole panoply of insanity ) this is it in a nutshell a:
There is a lot of discontent among Arabs that God hasn't given them a religion. Jews and Christians are catered for but the Arabs are left out...so...
Mohommed, an illiterate merchant, is visited by the archangel Gabriel who tells him to write down EXACTLY what he says...Mohammed counters "but I can't read or write" so Gabriel says, ok, we'll get someone else to write it down at some point but you'll have to remember everything EXACTLY.
He then tells mo that this is the FINAL revelation of God, ( Allah) and is to be the absolute final word of prophesy superseding all previous prophets Jesus etc.
Gabriel then goes into a long list of arguments between various Desert tribespeople and talks about how to avenge sleights and disagreements in awful ways.
During all of this the devil gets involved and tells Mohammed a lot of lies which get included in the final prophesy, mohammed realises down the line that he was lying but reasons that a few lies are OK as long as he admits it.
Throughout his life Mohammed has a series of visions, probably epilepsy induced, which justify whatever he wants to do at any particular time...his wives joke about how convenient it all is for him.
Mohommed, after a long life of bloody war and child abuse, dies but, strangely, does not tell anyone who is to succeed him which causes a rift right from the beginning between Shia and Sunni which causes bloodshed from the very inception.
Islam decides, about 65 years after Mohammed death, to start collecting his sayings and utterances into a book, the Q'ran, there is a lot of disagreements from the beginning about what is and isn't true they persist to this day.
Allah only speaks Arabic, therefore the Q'ran can only be read in arabic. English interpretations are not considered Haram.

 

[alfredmizen]

Islam is a totally insane religion ( among a whole panoply of insanity ) this is it in a nutshell a:
There is a lot of discontent among Arabs that God hasn't given them a religion. Jews and Christians are catered for but the Arabs are left out...so...
Mohommed, an illiterate merchant, is visited by the archangel Gabriel who tells him to write down EXACTLY what he says...Mohammed counters "but I can't read or write" so Gabriel says, ok, we'll get someone else to write it down at some point but you'll have to remember everything EXACTLY.
He then tells mo that this is the FINAL revelation of God, ( Allah) and is to be the absolute final word of prophesy superseding all previous prophets Jesus etc.
Gabriel then goes into a long list of arguments between various Desert tribespeople and talks about how to avenge sleights and disagreements in awful ways.
During all of this the devil gets involved and tells Mohammed a lot of lies which get included in the final prophesy, mohammed realises down the line that he was lying but reasons that a few lies are OK as long as he admits it.
Throughout his life Mohammed has a series of visions, probably epilepsy induced, which justify whatever he wants to do at any particular time...his wives joke about how convenient it all is for him.
Mohommed, after a long life of bloody war and child abuse, dies but, strangely, does not tell anyone who is to succeed him which causes a rift right from the beginning between Shia and Sunni which causes bloodshed from the very inception.
Islam decides, about 65 years after Mohammed death, to start collecting his sayings and utterances into a book, the Q'ran, there is a lot of disagreements from the beginning about what is and isn't true they persist to this day.
Allah only speaks Arabic, therefore the Q'ran can only be read in arabic. English interpretations are not considered Haram.

I thought Haram was wrong , do you mean Halal ?

 

[symyjym]

Islam is a totally insane religion ( among a whole panoply of insanity ) this is it in a nutshell a:
There is a lot of discontent among Arabs that God hasn't given them a religion. Jews and Christians are catered for but the Arabs are left out...so...
Mohommed, an illiterate merchant, is visited by the archangel Gabriel who tells him to write down EXACTLY what he says...Mohammed counters "but I can't read or write" so Gabriel says, ok, we'll get someone else to write it down at some point but you'll have to remember everything EXACTLY.
He then tells mo that this is the FINAL revelation of God, ( Allah) and is to be the absolute final word of prophesy superseding all previous prophets Jesus etc.
Gabriel then goes into a long list of arguments between various Desert tribespeople and talks about how to avenge sleights and disagreements in awful ways.
During all of this the devil gets involved and tells Mohammed a lot of lies which get included in the final prophesy, mohammed realises down the line that he was lying but reasons that a few lies are OK as long as he admits it.
Throughout his life Mohammed has a series of visions, probably epilepsy induced, which justify whatever he wants to do at any particular time...his wives joke about how convenient it all is for him.
Mohommed, after a long life of bloody war and child abuse, dies but, strangely, does not tell anyone who is to succeed him which causes a rift right from the beginning between Shia and Sunni which causes bloodshed from the very inception.
Islam decides, about 65 years after Mohammed death, to start collecting his sayings and utterances into a book, the Q'ran, there is a lot of disagreements from the beginning about what is and isn't true they persist to this day.
Allah only speaks Arabic, therefore the Q'ran can only be read in arabic. English interpretations are not considered Haram.

Pretty much sums it up. Though there shouldn't be any discontent among Arabs that God didn't give them a religion. If we consider that the people of the Middle East are all of Arab origin in the first place. The chosen ones, Arab Jews, were catered for but they didn't accept anyone who they considered a half blood, such as Jesus. Jesus came along who was half Jewish Arab, and probably half Roman, said that God welcomes everyone. In essence Christianity is an all welcoming Arab religion, nothing to do with Europeans, so Muhammads work was not needed.

 

[scamander]

for those interested - Tom Holland's Shadow of the Sword is a very good read. If you're unfamiliar Holland's a historian who has written on a number of subjects and does well to make the subject relevant and engaging.

Shadow of the Sword details the early formation of Islam and the contributing factors towards it.

 

[symyjym]

for those interested - Tom Holland's Shadow of the Sword is a very good read. If you're unfamiliar Holland's a historian who has written on a number of subjects and does well to make the subject relevant and engaging.

Shadow of the Sword details the early formation of Islam and the contributing factors towards it.

Will do. At a quick glance it sounds very interesting.

https://youtu.be/GOowWr027nA

 

[GingerBeerMan]

Erdogan is baiting Russia, saying all sorts of antagonistic things. Turkey have been bombing in Syria, they should be careful about their planes, I'm sure Russia won't hesitate to shot down a jet now.

 

[symyjym]

Erdogan is baiting Russia, saying all sorts of antagonistic things. Turkey have been bombing in Syria, they should be careful about their planes, I'm sure Russia won't hesitate to shot down a jet now.

Shooting down a Russian jet is one thing. Both pilots could have lived to tell the tale but for the fact that the Turkish allies, the Turkmen rebels, used the Russian pilot as target practice. If they were a legitimate force they would have captured him alive as a POW and negotiated with the Russians to stop bombing them. Any group that doesn't abide by the Geneva Convention has to be considered a terrorist organisation.

 

[Igzilla]

for those interested - Tom Holland's Shadow of the Sword is a very good read. If you're unfamiliar Holland's a historian who has written on a number of subjects and does well to make the subject relevant and engaging.

Shadow of the Sword details the early formation of Islam and the contributing factors towards it.

Is a good read. Just hope Daesh don't read it, as I'd be worried they'd send someone after Mr Holland.

 

[Soulman]

So who are the Turks supplying, is it ISIS...
http://en.alalam.ir/news/1763685

 

[Igzilla]

Erdogan is baiting Russia, saying all sorts of antagonistic things. Turkey have been bombing in Syria, they should be careful about their planes, I'm sure Russia won't hesitate to shot down a jet now.

Someone should tell Turkey to STFU.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

Someone should tell Turkey to STFU.

NATO won't support Turkey if it comes to it. Russia know that the defensive pact won't stand if Syria are 'defending themselves' from turkish bombings when Turkish jets are downed. The Turkish higher ups seem to think they're untouchable, I think they're being a bit short sighted on this matter.