[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[vegster]

From the Guardian live update (I've emboldened the bit I found interesting):
"

The Pentagon has been briefing the press off-camera, Julian Borger writes.

For all the talk of potential chemical or biological weapons, the US military sees no signs such weapons are being prepared for imminent use, according to reporting from the briefing.

A senior defence official said there is bitter fighting in and around Mariupol, which the Russians want to be able to declare as a first strategic victory and also use to prevent Ukrainian forces being diverted to defend Kyiv. The port city is now under naval shelling from ships in the Sea of Azov.

Around Mykolaiv, meanwhile, the Russians are having to withdraw in the face of pushback from the town’s Ukrainian defenders. There is also a Ukrainian counterattack around Izyum, a town 75 miles south of Kharkiv.

The official said there are early indications that the Ukrainians are “now able and willing to take back territory”.

The Pentagon said there are continuing morale issues among Russian troops, with food and fuel shortages, as well as frostbite due to a lack of warm weather gear. “They’re struggling on many fronts,” the US official said."

If we can get enough anti tank missiles and anti aircraft missiles through to the Ukrainians they have a fighting chance..if only we could get some anti-ship missiles out there too, if the Russian navy lost a ship or two they might have to stand off out of shelling range.

 

[warmleyseagull]

Unbelievable [emoji35]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ult-green-light-resume-car-production-russia/

Thierry Henry could take a stand here: "Renault eject"

 

[Machiavelli]

Have you got some examples of countries invading a peaceful country and then forcing them to accept land taken, which then remains with the aggressor in the eyes of the international community (I assume there are some good examples, I just don't know them)?

well the obvious, topical one would be the Soviet Union. invaded and absorbed baltic countries, Ukraine, Belarus, the 'stans in the east and others. widely recognised for what 70 years? before that you have the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Prussian empire, etc. all drawing and redrawing lines on the map every decade or so.

Yup, what he says. What's happened subsequently is the number of countries has grown and, as a consequence, their size has shrunk (eg Yugoslavia in 1990s; Czech/Slovakia)

I'd like to think the world is less accepting of empires now.

It was for a while. No longer. Although the terminology has changed. It's 'civilizationalism' that Putin ultimately believes in.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Unbelievable [emoji35]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ult-green-light-resume-car-production-russia/

If that was Boris we'd be inundated with accusations and memes by now, Macron seems to get away scott free with his duplicitous behaviour.

Also read yesterday that french retailers are planning to expand in Russia, filling the gap left by other Western companies. No pressure from the government at all to not do it.

 

[Machiavelli]

Historically?

We took the lands of the indigenous peoples in Australia and North America. The Spanish & Portuguese took the lands of the indigenous peoples of South America.

The West took the lands of the Palestinian people.

Currently?

The Israelis continue to illegally occupy the West Bank. The Turks continue to illegally occupy Northern Cyprus.

Great post, although what 'we' have done means that I can't identify with that 'we'.

 

[Machiavelli]

Because of the horrors facing the people of Mariupol, I'm cautious about getting my hopes up for them, only to learn of something awful in the next couple of weeks.

Is it being suggested this is due to the failings of the Russian forces, rather than Russians not wanting to kill civilians?

I think the key thing is it's easy to pummel cities with missiles from a distance. To take, occupy and defend a city requires your own troops to be in that city (and you can't pummel it with missiles), and they need to fight combat with those defying the occupation: they need to kill and be liable to be killed, and often to look into the face of that other.
That's quite something to do, especially when all or some of the following might apply:
-- you consider Ukranians to be your brothers
-- you've been told that you'd be welcomed with open arms by said brothers
-- you've only recently been signed up to the army
-- you were told that you wouldn't be fighting when drafted into the army
-- you're up against a determined opponent that thinks you're scum because you've invaded their country, and also regard that you are carrying out the tasks of a fascist

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

One BBC news report said Zelensky said Ukraine was "on the verge of survival".

Another BBC report stated he said "teetering on the edge of survival".

Total opposites. They need to make up their mind.

 

[Scappa]

I think the key thing is it's easy to pummel cities with missiles from a distance. To take, occupy and defend a city requires your own troops to be in that city (and you can't pummel it with missiles), and they need to fight combat with those defying the occupation: they need to kill and be liable to be killed, and often to look into the face of that other.
That's quite something to do, especially when all or some of the following might apply:
-- you consider Ukranians to be your brothers
-- you've been told that you'd be welcomed with open arms by said brothers
-- you've only recently been signed up to the army
-- you were told that you wouldn't be fighting when drafted into the army
-- you're up against a determined opponent that thinks you're scum because you've invaded their country, and also regard that you are carrying out the tasks of a fascist

-there is clear evidence that you and/or your brethren have been shooting fleeing civilians in the back

 

[Eric the meek]

'Bereaved relatives in Russia 'ordered to stay silent'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60830013 - at 15:22

Ever since the start of the Russian invasion, information on Russian casualties has been scarce.
While the Ukrainian government now claims over 15,000 Russian servicemen have been killed, the Russian authorities admitted to just under 500 deaths on 2 March.
BBC Russian has conducted a detailed investigation, confirming the names and ranks of 557 Russian soldiers and officers killed in Ukraine by sifting through social media and local announcements as well as speaking to the relatives.

The investigation found that 15 of Russia’s 85 regions had not published any information about local servicemen killed in Ukraine.
But in one such area - the Kemerovo region in Siberia – BBC Russian (with the help of local residents who asked not to be identified) established identities and burial places of seven soldiers and officers.
A few hours after the BBC investigation was published, the Kemerovo authorities announced that 13 servicemen had been buried in the region since the start of the war.

But there is evidence of growing pressure on local journalists - some earlier reports about soldiers killed in action have been deleted.
One Siberian journalist told the BBC: "At the level of the regional government, all local media outlets were instructed not to publish any data on losses in Ukraine. There are cases when local officials put pressure on the relatives of the victims, ordering them to stay silent.

"They say: 'There is no need to make a fuss now, we will find a way to commemorate your boys later.'"

 

[essbee1]

Apologies if fixtures

[tweet]1506265327973376009[/tweet]

After what they've done, if I was Ukrainian, POWs would not be on my bloody agenda.

 

[rogersix]

Having Trump in the Whitehouse to pull out of NATO and to refuse to help Ukraine was all part of the big plan.

Unfortunately for Putin COVID struck, delaying the invasion to a time when Trump was no longer in charge - Putin blundered then by allowing his hubris to take over and going ahead anyway without his man in place.

why does covid delay the invasion?

 

[jakarta]

One bloke got the Russians bang to rights in March 1946...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA5ISi9yhhs

 

[Bold Seagull]

why does covid delay the invasion?

I would assume Covid ripping through your army isn’t a great idea during an invasion.

 

[raymondo]

Maybe it's car production and how they can work together they've been discussing all this time

Maybe Renault limos for the Duma?
Actually, I did read somewhere that Renault are in a big joint venture with a local company with many 100s staff involved if they close down. I'm not defending their decision, which still seems bizarre given the French state % ownership

 

[raymondo]

One bloke got the Russians bang to rights in March 1946...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA5ISi9yhhs

Thanks for posting - I hadn't seen that before

 

[vegster]

I would assume Covid ripping through your army isn’t a great idea during an invasion.

Yep, not much room in them tanks and AFV's, and you are not wearing facemasks .

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

After what they've done, if I was Ukrainian, POWs would not be on my bloody agenda.

That would be a very bad move. What is the point of surrendering if you are going to be shot. You might as well fight to the last bullet.


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[raymondo]

If we can get enough anti tank missiles and anti aircraft missiles through to the Ukrainians they have a fighting chance..if only we could get some anti-ship missiles out there too, if the Russian navy lost a ship or two they might have to stand off out of shelling range.

I have wondered whether the Ukrainian air force have tried getting a couple of planes down there to try to sink the warships...but I guess the Russians will have lots of anti aircraft weaponry there? I never hear it discussed by the experts though

 

[rogersix]

I suspect you're right. So what exactly is the point of a country's constitution? Why, for example, do US presidents (with support of congress etc) not change the law to allow themselves to sit for more than 2 terms? (I realise this is what Putin has done, but we don't recognise Russia as a democracy).

medvedev did it

 

[essbee1]

That would be a very bad move. What is the point of surrendering if you are going to be shot. You might as well fight to the last bullet.


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Fair point. Maybe it would also lead to a load more desertions/surrender by Russians if they showed mercy.