[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Poojah]

We can't just let Putin have Ukraine to pacify him? That's how Hitler got started?

We can and we will - this is precisely the plan we are following right now. Beyond sanctions, of which we have all but exhausted now, Putin has free reign to do whatever he wants in Ukraine.

The US in particular has been fervent about this - they will not endanger their own citizens by going to war with Russia in Ukraine. The comparisons to the appeasement of Hitler aren’t valid - crucially he did not have nuclear weapons and the fact that Putin does changes everything.

 

[A mex eyecan]

BBC news now reporting Iskander ballistic missiles fired from within Belarus

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

BBC news now reporting Islander ballistic missiles fired from within Belarus

I assume the "peace talks" are now off.

 

[A mex eyecan]

I assume the "peace talks" are now off.

it seems to be moving fast, and almost as if everything, including announcements, are made of mercury, bloody hard to grasp

 

[Poojah]

The best hope for who ? Why should Ukrainians give up their hopes and dreams so that you can live comfortably in Leeds and I on Merseyside ? The world has to stand up to him and it is doing so.

This isn’t about me taking the selfish or insular view from my (currently) safe and comfortable surroundings in Leeds; I’m speaking in terms of what’s in the best interest of hundreds of millions of people around the world who’s lives could be destroyed or ended by nuclear war.

All it will take for that to happen is direct conflict between Russian and NATO forces for that to happen. We are doing what can in terms of sanctions, but getting involved militarily at this stage would be catastrophic. That of course won’t sit well with the Ukrainian people, but this situation is not of the west’s making - it has to try and make the best hands of the cards it has been dealt and right now that means leaving Ukraine to fend for itself.

 

[A mex eyecan]

This isn’t about me taking the selfish or insular view from my (currently) safe and comfortable surroundings in Leeds; I’m speaking in terms of what’s in the best interest of hundreds of millions of people around the world who’s lives could be destroyed or ended by nuclear war.

All it will take for that to happen is direct conflict between Russian and NATO forces for that to happen. We are doing what can in terms of sanctions, but getting involved militarily at this stage would be catastrophic. That of course won’t sit well with the Ukrainian people, but this situation is not of the west’s making - it has to try and make the best hands of the cards it has been dealt and right now that means leaving Ukraine to fend for itself.

trouble is, as i see it Poojah, is that if he gets his way now he will only ever see that he can do whatever he likes whenever he likes, based on the view we won’t do anything in case it gets nasty. Hitler did exactly the same and see where that led anyway.

it’s bloody scary and extremely dangerous to say the least.

 

[vegster]

BBC news now reporting Iskander ballistic missiles fired from within Belarus

Christ !

 

[British Bulldog]

We can and we will - this is precisely the plan we are following right now. Beyond sanctions, of which we have all but exhausted now, Putin has free reign to do whatever he wants in Ukraine.

The US in particular has been fervent about this - they will not endanger their own citizens by going to war with Russia in Ukraine. The comparisons to the appeasement of Hitler aren’t valid - crucially he did not have nuclear weapons and the fact that Putin does changes everything.

The West and Nato are just playing it cagey at the moment so as not to go for an all out war with Russia, just as you expect them too. Putin is going all in on bravado which is only going to lead to his demise.

 

[dazzer6666]

This isn’t about me taking the selfish or insular view from my (currently) safe and comfortable surroundings in Leeds; I’m speaking in terms of what’s in the best interest of hundreds of millions of people around the world who’s lives could be destroyed or ended by nuclear war.

All it will take for that to happen is direct conflict between Russian and NATO forces for that to happen. We are doing what can in terms of sanctions, but getting involved militarily at this stage would be catastrophic. That of course won’t sit well with the Ukrainian people, but this situation is not of the west’s making - it has to try and make the best hands of the cards it has been dealt and right now that means leaving Ukraine to fend for itself.

He won’t stop at Ukraine if he’s successful………

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

This isn’t about me taking the selfish or insular view from my (currently) safe and comfortable surroundings in Leeds; I’m speaking in terms of what’s in the best interest of hundreds of millions of people around the world who’s lives could be destroyed or ended by nuclear war.

All it will take for that to happen is direct conflict between Russian and NATO forces for that to happen. We are doing what can in terms of sanctions, but getting involved militarily at this stage would be catastrophic. That of course won’t sit well with the Ukrainian people, but this situation is not of the west’s making - it has to try and make the best hands of the cards it has been dealt and right now that means leaving Ukraine to fend for itself.

I get that - but that just buys a bit of time. 1 year, 5 years ?

Heaven help us if it takes us to a time when a Trumpist ( Putinist ) has removed the US from NATO.

I suppose it does give us a chance to work through our bucket lists though. Make the most of the remaining time given to us.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

This isn’t about me taking the selfish or insular view from my (currently) safe and comfortable surroundings in Leeds; I’m speaking in terms of what’s in the best interest of hundreds of millions of people around the world who’s lives could be destroyed or ended by nuclear war.

All it will take for that to happen is direct conflict between Russian and NATO forces for that to happen. We are doing what can in terms of sanctions, but getting involved militarily at this stage would be catastrophic. That of course won’t sit well with the Ukrainian people, but this situation is not of the west’s making - it has to try and make the best hands of the cards it has been dealt and right now that means leaving Ukraine to fend for itself.

A similar view taken by one Neville Chamberlain in 1938 … that went well.


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[peterward]

Russian imperialism is centuries old (just like British, French, Spanish, Portugese, German, Belgian, Dutch etc imperialism - US imperialism is a little over 200 years old). Over the decades Russia has controlled some or all of the countries of Eastern Europe at different times. It is worth noting that in the past few days Putin condemned Lenin for giving Ukraine independence and promoting self-determination for states controlled by the Russian empire (and praised Stalin for bringing them back under Russian sphere of unfluence after WW2) and the Russian government has condemned the anti-war protests in Russia as 'Trotskyist and left-wing scum'.

Putin and his regime is promoting Russian chauvanism in an attempt to re-establish their political dominance in Russia which has taken a major hit in the last couple of years - they want to tack back to the nationalist popularity generated when Russia went into Crimea a few years ago - to 'protect' the Russian speaking population from (actual) discrimination from a Ukrainian government that contained Nazis who were intent on driving the Russian population out of Eastern Ukraine.

I'll repeat it again, youre clueless. Youre the hard left version of Swansman. A nut.

You do realise it was the same false pretext Hitler used in the Suduntenland to invade Czechoslavakia.

I'm beside myself really with this total nonsense, from a wife who comes from as far in the East of Ukraine as you can be Mariupol, who is ethnic Russian speaker, whose family are cowering right now as Russian missiles rein down on civilian areas, where locals in the street have been killed, homes destroyed and you spout imaginary Kremlin talking points.
You can enjoy your loony left utopian fantasy land all you like, but the discrimination from nazis driving people out of eastern ukraine is beyond deluded and utterly clueless.

Ukraine is a soverign nation, the peoples republics are not real, they were Russian actors who seized building with Russian special ops, and the latest high tech weaponary claiming to be civilians.... at a time when the Ukrainian army was weak..... Oh I know the kremlin, russian state TV narratives of 2014, that Nazis are coming to drive you out, but thats what it was narrative. Nobody was driven out, they came to defend their nation against a hybrid Russian invasion.

Svoboda is a Ukrainian nationalist party that polls under 2%, not in power ever, an opposition party a bit like UKip. The current President is a Russian speaking Jew, his grandfather was in the red army, he lost family to the concentration camps, the Ukrainian PM is a Jew too.

The Azov battalion was a defence battalion that tried to protect Ukrainian cities in the east from Hybrid Russian take over (with Neo Nazi Russians - sorry thats not told to you on RT). Wagner group - the way Russia tries to insert Russian fighting troops into conflicts like hybrid take overs without being regular troops, is full of Neo Nazis.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/wagners-rusich-neo-nazi-attack-unit-hints-its-going-back-into-ukraine-undercover

https://euromaidanpress.com/2015/08/30/german-neo-nazis-carry-dnr-flag-while-kremlin-tries-to-portray-it-as-anti-fascist/


The Russians tried to also Seize Mariupol, Kharkiv and Odessa also but the Russians, yes actual Russian citizens, neo nazis and hard lefties with Russian special ops, sent from Russia (not Ukrainian Russian speakers), were driven out of seizing administrative buildings and trying to do what they succeded with in Donetsk and Luhansk.

https://sciencenorway.no/conflict-foreign-fighters-terrorism/this-is-where-neo-nazi-foreign-fighters-fought-alongside-communists/1853856

Ukraine had no military, the money was stolen, they had nothing and were willing to use anyone to defend against seizure of cities by Russians.

Thats the truth. the rubbish you spout is Kremlin myth. I despise hard left and hard right extremists ideoligcally, but if Hard left and right French citizens started to seize buildings in Brighton and get French speaking Brightonians to rise up against the rest, I wouldnt care what your political views are. You stop them and send them packing. It was military defence not political or ideological.

 

[Eric the meek]

For those of us who think today is a grim day, fast forward a few weeks or months.

Imagine a Russian spring.

A time when Putin is no longer in charge. Either he has disappeared, or someone has done the world a favour, and a moderate has assumed interim command until elections are introduced.
World war 3 has been averted through skilled diplomacy from the EU and US.
Russia has withdrawn from Ukraine, and so have the separatists, who turned out to be Russian anyway.
Ukraine has begun a campaign to rebuild, with the help of EU funds. The aim is to fast track Ukraine into the EU, as it rebuilds its economy. NATO membership is also being discussed.
Russia is planning elections, and the Russian people are getting to grips with free association, speech, TV and media. Dissenting voices are lost amongst the chatter of the free world.
The EU are talking of lessening the sanctions.

Before you scoff, is this scenario really so unlikely?

It's no more unlikely than an ex-KGB control freak with a lifelong grudge, ruling over a nuclear super power for over 20 years, is it?

It absolutely CAN get better. Perhaps the process has already begun.

 

[TomandJerry]

The European Union has announced that it intends to begin shipping arms to Ukraine, the first time in its history it has taken such a step.

Speaking at a press conference this afternoon, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said the move marked a "watershed moment".

She also announced a raft of new sanctions targeting Russia and Belarus, and a ban on Russia using European airspace.

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[rogersix]

The European Union has announced that it intends to begin shipping arms to Ukraine, the first time in its history it has taken such a step.

Speaking at a press conference this afternoon, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said the move marked a "watershed moment".

She also announced a raft of new sanctions targeting Russia and Belarus, and a ban on Russia using European airspace.

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and the russian oligarchs with private jets are going to have to make other plans

 

[dazzer6666]

[tweet]1497958586579755014[/tweet]

 

[peterward]

And I get that you are a unpaid unaware Western empire loudspeaker, to large extent projecting your own mindset on to me.

There's at least two sides of every story. Blindly swallowing one while ignoring the other is the foolish behaviour that throughout modern history has made us accept our leaders oppression of people and states worldwide, as well as sending our kids into a bunch of unnecessary avoidable wars and conflicts.

No I'm really not.

So tell me, did the west tell Yanukovych to renege on the EU agreement, already having CIA ops Ukrainain students ready to protest?
Did the spooks then dress as Berkut and beat their own men, to bring their reserve CIA special ops Ukrainian students to the streets?
Are these really all 100 ukrainian people who lost their live or fabricated?
Was is rubber bullets and actors with fake blood?

I know people who were there, i witnessed the timeline of cause and effect live in real time.

You make yourself sound stupid with this ridiculous generic statement of "western empire loudspeaker".

All consoiracy theorists use simplistic tropes to try and shut down reasoned discourse that challenges them.

So please tell me,day by day, what really happened?

Of course you cant, because what I said is fact and what you wrote was generic broadbrush conspiracy bollocks

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

It was a ruse. These aren't genuine peace talks.

[Tweet]1497942158820753408[/Tweet]

 

[Eric the meek]

Russia acknowledges losses for the first time - BBC.

For the first time, the Russian defence ministry has acknowledged casualties in Ukraine, but it has not given figures.

Unexpected?

 

[Poojah]

He won’t stop at Ukraine if he’s successful………

Well in that case we have a world war then, in all reality. Not much we can do about that if that’s the case, but I’d rather we didn’t do anything to increase the prospects of that happening.