[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[birthofanorange]

The rest of the world stands up against him and lets him know he where he stands.

That's pretty much how it stands, currently.....isn't it?

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Oh dear, Swansman's woken up again. Lets all convene for a (relatively) sensible debate at 8am when he'll have just about burnt himself out.

 

[peterward]

I agree, upto a point, unfortunately next time a Labour Government comes to power ( I pray it is not for a long, long time) they would be hauled before the beak sharpish.

What lands in Poland, says in Poland

 

[British Bulldog]

That's pretty much how it stands, currently.....isn't it?

Exactly what we should be doing and are doing, no doubt there is much more going on outside of the media but we can't let 1 mad man rule the world.

 

[birthofanorange]

Exactly what we should be doing and are doing, no doubt there is much more going on outside of the media but we can't let 1 mad man rule the world.

I agree, but we're running out of options, and there is a distinct probability that we will all end up the losers - Putin too - but I don't think he's bothered by that.

 

[peterward]

As for "Ukraine being a vassal of Moscow", yes he believes this (or similarly at least) and has always been open about it. This is what he said when asked if he thought Russia and Ukraine was "one country":

Of course. Look, when these lands that are now the core of Ukraine, joined Russia, there were just three regions – Kiev, the Kiev region, northern and southern regions – nobody thought themselves to be anything but Russians, because it was all based on religious affiliation. They were all Orthodox and they considered themselves Russians. They did not want to be part of the Catholic world, where Poland was dragging them.

I understand very well that over the time the identity of this part of Russia crystallized, and people have the right to determine their identity. But later this factor was used to throw into imbalance the Russian Empire. But in fact, this is the same world sharing the same history, same religion, traditions, and a wide range of ties, close family ties among them.

At the same time, if a significant part of people who live in Ukraine today believe that they should emphasise their identity and fight for it, no one in Russia would be against this, including me. But, bearing in mind that we have many things in common, we can use this as our competitive advantage during some form of integration; it is obvious. However, the current government clearly doesn’t want this. I believe that in the end common sense will prevail, and we will finally arrive at the conclusion I have mentioned: rapprochement is inevitable.

As for the Nazi thing, the West-supported coup d'etat in Ukraine back in 2014 was indeed carried out through the West arming and training neo-nazis.

I give in Swanny, youre a clueless conspiracy theorist parroting RT. Putins History is wrong. Kyiv the birthpace of Orthodoxy was a city 1000 years ago when moscow was a village in the woods, Kyiv was a city on he land that is Ukraine, 100's of years before Russia was a country.

As for the coup, thats total and utter bollox. There was no coup of any sorts. The Moscow puppet rigged election as they always do, was totally corrupt on a different scale, stealing from state ministeries and expropriating private businesses to his sons, the express will of the country in polling was to sign an EU association agreement and he said he would. The very day he announced he was renegeing (his choice not Washingtons), 100's went on the street. When 1 person got beaten, more came.... it was still a manageable size and may have even petered out. But then one night he, or Moscow ordered a brutal crackdown using the feared Berkut riot police, much of it caught on camera, a few protestors died and then 10's of thousands horrified took to the streets and Yanukovich lost control, he tried another shoot to kill brutal crackdown on the nights before he eventually fled but the protestors didnt stop. It was a popular uprising, because of Yanukovych corruption and his decsions and resort to violence.

Your problem is you dont have an varying opinion based on each unique event, you cant look at things as individual instances. Its all a big one size fits all conspiracy every time

I suggest you read your history more, learn to actually critcally analyse facts rather than pre formed suppositions that feed confirmation bias, and maybe then you'll be a little more critically well rounded.

https://khpg.org/en/1387893053

People died to free themsleves from the yoke of a brutal police state, maybe you should consider that a little more than what the man on RT says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_the_Revolution_of_Dignity

 

[Baker lite]

People are trying to have a sensible and adult discussion on here in what is a serious and dangerous situation and you come up with that childish rant.
You are a low life but seeing as you think you were in the Navy and have military experience, why don't you go out there and help out or are you the total coward that I have always suspected.
My advice, stop drinking.

Debate robustly, never resort to personal abuse.


Reported.

 

[British Bulldog]

After his nuclear threat I fully expect to see a larger Nato force built up around our borders, with some seriously heavy equipment involved rather than the 40,000 defensive force.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

'The hypocrisy of the western powers' It's all about the real politic of the situation. Of course the Saudi regime is abhorrent - the reality is that the west has to deal with it. We have to deal with the world as it is - not some idealised version of it that only exists in our imagination.

So you believe that the 'west' has to ignore the genocide of the Yemeni population because the 'west' needs oil from the Saudis?

Youre wrong in much of that JRG. They're aren't many weapons or troops on the far Eastern flanks, or there wasn't before this insane gambit.

Early last year the Americans opened talks with Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan about the establishment of US/NATO bases in those countries. During its invasion and occupation of Afghanistan the Americans had military bases in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Furthermore, since Biden was elected he has adopted a much more aggressive expansionist policy along the Pacific Rim.

The idea that NATO is marching east to encircle Russia is a Kremlin narrative, besides it has nothing to do with what's happening here today. It was a false pretext.

Both Putin and the west (i.e. the Americans and the EU) want to get control of the vast natural resources of Ukraine - it is a huge country with huge metal and non-metal mineral resources as well as oil and gas and has some of the most fertile farmland in the Northern hemisphere.

All of the eastern flank newer EU/NATO nations were forced and subjugated under Moscow domination against their will. They had decades of puppet governments and were forced under Moscow's heel. Many uprisings were brutally put down and the movements yearning to be free from this shackle, like Solidarity were part of the reason the USSR collapsed.

Once it had, some of these nations of the Warsaw block took their one opportunity to join the ONLY collective defence union that could virtually guarantee their freedom from Moscow's imperial yoke. The Eastern flanks countries now free, moved westwards of their own volition and free sovereign choice.

Forced eastward oppression, chosen westward security for freedom.

Out fo the frying pan - into the fire. Since the collapse of Stalinism in Eastern Europe nearly all of the Eastern bloc countries have seen a myriad of right-wing neo-liberal and far-right governments who, along with the USA and the EU have pillaged the resources of these countries (the oligarchs have done similar in Russia and the Asian republics).

We are not excused from imperialism, but we're not subjugating Iceland to join the UK.

The UK still dominates six Irish counties and has overseen decades of sectarian conflict in the region with thousands of deaths as a result. Their 'peace process' has led to an ongoing and increasingly bitter sectarian divide in the North of Ireland with regular, often nightly, sectarian riots on the interface between the two communities.

Imperialism, spheres of influence are of previous centuries.

Wrong - in the last 20 years US imperial interests has seen over 250K people die in Afghanistan (and the return of the Taliban to power) - 1 million deaths in Iraq and the utter fracturing of the country into warring sectarian factions - Libya were there have been countless deaths as the country has decended into pieces under warlords after the USA and France pumped huge amounts of military hardware into the country as they jockeyed for control of the Libyan oilfields - The USA has been ensconsed in Somalia since 2007 launching airstrikes on a regular basis, with no tally of the deaths the US intervention has caused (airstrikes were dramatically ramped up under Trump) - the US has been directly and indirctly intervening in Yemen since 2001 (at the same time the USA and NATO were causing death and havoc in the former Yugoslav states) and causing the deaths of 500K people - the US and NATO have also intervened in Lebanon, another country where they have created ongoing sectarian strife - US airstrikes have taken place in Pakistan - in the last 20 years the USA has also been involved in the Nepalese civil war, the insurgency in the Maghreb, and the conflict in Uganda. And this does not take into account the ongoing support for the Zionist suppression of Palestinian rights in the occupied territories or their efforts to destabilise the Iranian regime. Both the USA/NATO and Russia have flexed their imperialist muscles in Syria over the past number of years causing widespread devastation to the country and its population. And the Russians have also engaged in similar imperialist adventures as the Americans in Cechnya, Dagestan, Georgia, the North Caucases, and the Central African Republic.

Imperialism is alive and well - and is inevitable under capitalism.

Any concerns on nato bases, troops can be resolved peacefully with binding agreements

Yea - right - see above

Putin is terrified of freedom of speech, civic movements and a free and prosperous democracy of Slavs next door infecting his kleptocraric grip on power. Johnson said Putin must be seen to fail, Putin believes Ukrainian democracy must be seen to fail.

This is Putin paranoid self interest not Russian national interest.

It is easy to put forward this narrative - the evil Putin, if only he was removed evrything would be alright. Unfortunately Putin is not acting alone - he is a representative of the Russian oligarchs (in the same way Biden is a representative of US financial capital) and it is in their interests that he is operating.

NATO intervention in this conflict will resolve nothing - as can be seen above, every conflict they have stuck their noses into has resulted in ongoing crisis and death. The only way of forcing a resolution of this conflict is by a mass anti-war movement building on the streets globally (like the tens of thousands who have taken to the streets of Russian cities in the past few days). While this anti-war movement should defend the right of Ukraine to self-determination it cannot in any way adopt a pro-NATO narrative (and that is something being pushed by the Tories -and Starmer's New Labour - as well as many liberal groups globally) - that would completely undermine the potential of any movement forcing an end to the conflict - and particularly undermine the potential of the development of a mass opposition to Putin in Russia.

 

[Swansman]

I give in Swanny, youre a clueless conspiracy theorist parroting RT. Putins History is wrong. Kyiv the birthpace of Orthodoxy was a city 1000 years ago when moscow was a village in the woods, Kyiv was a city on he land that is Ukraine, 100's of years before Russia was a country.

As for the coup, thats total and utter bollox. There was no coup of any sorts. The Moscow puppet rigged election as they always do, was totally corrupt on a different scale, stealing from state ministeries and expropriating private businesses to his sons, the express will of the country in polling was to sign an EU association agreement and he said he would. The very day he announced he was renegeing (his choice not Washingtons), 100's went on the street. When 1 person got beaten, more came.... it was still a manageable size and may have even petered out. But then one night he, or Moscow ordered a brutal crackdown using the feared Berkut riot police, much of it caught on camera, a few protestors died and then 10's of thousands horrified took to the streets and Yanukovich lost control, he tried another shoot to kill brutal crackdown on the nights before he eventually fled but the protestors didnt stop. It was a popular uprising, because of Yanukovych corruption and his decsions and resort to violence.

Your problem is you dont have an varying opinion based on each unique event, you cant look at things as individual instances. Its all a big one size fits all conspiracy every time

I suggest you read your history more, learn to actually critcally analyse facts rather than pre formed suppositions that feed confirmation bias, and maybe then you'll be a little more critically well rounded.

https://khpg.org/en/1387893053

People died to free themsleves from the yoke of a brutal police state, maybe you should consider that a little more than what the man on RT says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_the_Revolution_of_Dignity

And I get that you are a unpaid unaware Western empire loudspeaker, to large extent projecting your own mindset on to me.

There's at least two sides of every story. Blindly swallowing one while ignoring the other is the foolish behaviour that throughout modern history has made us accept our leaders oppression of people and states worldwide, as well as sending our kids into a bunch of unnecessary avoidable wars and conflicts.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I give in Swanny, youre a clueless conspiracy theorist parroting RT. Putins History is wrong. Kyiv the birthpace of Orthodoxy was a city 1000 years ago when moscow was a village in the woods, Kyiv was a city on he land that is Ukraine, 100's of years before Russia was a country.

Russian imperialism is centuries old (just like British, French, Spanish, Portugese, German, Belgian, Dutch etc imperialism - US imperialism is a little over 200 years old). Over the decades Russia has controlled some or all of the countries of Eastern Europe at different times. It is worth noting that in the past few days Putin condemned Lenin for giving Ukraine independence and promoting self-determination for states controlled by the Russian empire (and praised Stalin for bringing them back under Russian sphere of unfluence after WW2) and the Russian government has condemned the anti-war protests in Russia as 'Trotskyist and left-wing scum'.

Putin and his regime is promoting Russian chauvanism in an attempt to re-establish their political dominance in Russia which has taken a major hit in the last couple of years - they want to tack back to the nationalist popularity generated when Russia went into Crimea a few years ago - to 'protect' the Russian speaking population from (actual) discrimination from a Ukrainian government that contained Nazis who were intent on driving the Russian population out of Eastern Ukraine.

 

[peterward]

I agree, but we're running out of options, and there is a distinct probability that we will all end up the losers - Putin too - but I don't think he's bothered by that.

Stay calm fella, theres a lot of Russian generals with kids, a lot of oligarchs with kids, a lot of senior FSB operatives with kids. As ruthless as they are, I dont think they all want to die.

I dont know Russian protocols for launch, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if there are discussions right now, high up in Russian military command. Theyre not all going to follow him over a cliff to death and destruction of Russia too

 

[Chicken Run]

Russian imperialism is centuries old (just like British, French, Spanish, Portugese, German, Belgian, Dutch etc imperialism - US imperialism is a little over 200 years old). Over the decades Russia has controlled some or all of the countries of Eastern Europe at different times. It is worth noting that in the past few days Putin condemned Lenin for giving Ukraine independence and promoting self-determination for states controlled by the Russian empire (and praised Stalin for bringing them back under Russian sphere of unfluence after WW2) and the Russian government has condemned the anti-war protests in Russia as 'Trotskyist and left-wing scum'.

Putin and his regime is promoting Russian chauvanism in an attempt to re-establish their political dominance in Russia which has taken a major hit in the last couple of years - they want to tack back to the nationalist popularity generated when Russia went into Crimea a few years ago - to 'protect' the Russian speaking population from (actual) discrimination from a Ukrainian government that contained Nazis who were intent on driving the Russian population out of Eastern Ukraine.

I bet you own a red t shirt with CCCP on it, go on be honest you do don’t you?


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[Eric the meek]

Last night I saw a tweet that said Putin had asked Belarus if they would agree to him deploying nuclear missiles on Belarus soil.

I had no idea whether the tweet was true or not, and no way to verify it, so I didn't post it. I probably wouldn't have posted it anyway, so as not to alarm people.

I guess today's events have made it immaterial now anyway.

 

[StonehamPark]

Stay calm fella, theres a lot of Russian generals with kids, a lot of oligarchs with kids, a lot of senior FSB operatives with kids. As ruthless as they are, I dont think they all want to die.

I dont know Russian protocols for launch, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if there are discussions right now, high up in Russian military command. Theyre not all going to follow him over a cliff to death and destruction of Russia too

Add in Xi Jinping's involvement. He will absolutely not want to see nuclear action and intervention from the west and will most likely have a very stern private word with Putin.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Stay calm fella, theres a lot of Russian generals with kids, a lot of oligarchs with kids, a lot of senior FSB operatives with kids. As ruthless as they are, I dont think they all want to die.

I dont know Russian protocols for launch, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if there are discussions right now, high up in Russian military command. Theyre not all going to follow him over a cliff to death and destruction of Russia too

Very much this.


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[rogersix]

Debate robustly, never resort to personal abuse.


Reported.

this is a time for big boy trouseres now.

you did call a poster on here a nonce, it's like you've got no self awareness

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Putin's nuclear threat is a "stay out of it" warning.

This possibly means he is going to use some very bad weapons now. I suspect a chemical weapon/phosphorus strike against his opponents.

He wants the West to quake at that point rather than send in the raptors to degrade his army.

 

[St Leonards Seagull]

And I get that you are a unpaid unaware Western empire loudspeaker, to large extent projecting your own mindset on to me.

There's at least two sides of every story. Blindly swallowing one while ignoring the other is the foolish behaviour that throughout modern history has made us accept our leaders oppression of people and states worldwide, as well as sending our kids into a bunch of unnecessary avoidable wars and conflicts.

I’d guess (and it’s only a guess mind) that by what [MENTION=15046]peterward[/MENTION] has contributed to this thread he’s got a good understanding of the history of Ukraine and it’s politics.


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[BBassic]

this is a time for big boy trouseres now.

you did call a poster on here a nonce, it's like you've got no self awareness

Pop him on ignore - makes the NSC experience much nicer.