[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Thunder Bolt]

Perhaps the desperate state of affairs arises from the equating of Boris Johnson with Sergei Lavrov. Let’s keep things in perspective on this and every other thread. Political debate will improve considerably.

Who's perspective?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Brave woman. The sunflower is Ukraine's national flower.

[tweet]1496866811110834176[/tweet]

 

[TomandJerry]

Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskiy has called on Vladimir Putin to join him at the negotiating table, according to Russian newswire Ria Novosti.

Zelenskiy also said Europe can still stop Russia’s aggression if it acts swiftly.

Here are some of his other comments, via Reuters.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE WHILE RUSSIAN

UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT TELLS ARMED FORCES “YOU ARE ALL WE HAVE”

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Who's perspective?

Mine on this occasion. Exaggeration always means you lose the debate. It’s a real turn off and leads to people doing the opposite of what you wish. One of these two politicians is today justifying the loss of life from the invasion of another country that he has ordered. The other one isn’t.

 

[marlowe]

Ukraine's Defence Force has just tweeted again, calling for all civilians to join regardless of their age - even if they're minors, presumably.

The statement, attributed to the Commander of Troops, Yuri Galushkin, reads:

"Today, Ukraine needs everything. All procedures for joining are simplified.

"Bring only your passport and identification number.

"There are no age restrictions."It tells people if they face problems signing up, they just need to refer to this official tweet.

What they could do with is a Brigadas Internacionales like what happened in the Spanish Civil War

 

[Poojah]

Nor do I but I have a good idea what will happen if we put troops on the ground in Ukraine. Not sure I am up to WW3 at the moment. We have to explore all other actions first, and no I don’t know what they should be either other than what is being done at the moment

There seems to be an misunderstanding from some quarters that we can wrestle control of this situation; we can’t. Sanctions will not halt Putin’s invasion of Ukraine; he will have been well prepared for those. We cannot put troops on the ground in Ukraine because, as you suggest, a meeting of western and Russian forces will lead to WW3.

What happens beyond there is up to Putin. He can do as he sees fit with Ukraine; the spectre of nuclear war will ultimately prevent anyone other than Ukraine’s own forces from intervening, and they are aren’t capable of defending their country against Russia’s massive army alone.

If he wishes to proceed into NATO territory, under any narrative whatsoever, then we’re going to have WW3 and we’re going to have nuclear war regardless. Until then, other than issue sanctions which will barely bloody Russia’s nose, the world can but watch and wait.

The west doesn’t want a world war. You would hope Putin doesn’t either, because it will mean the obliteration of his country and his people as well as ours and those of our allies. But no one other than Putin and perhaps select few know what his end game is. Maybe it’s not as extreme as many of us fear. Maybe this will ‘only’ end up being Ukraine’s problem.

Or maybe not. I know this; trying to guess what’s going on by applying the kind of civilian logic you or I possess is most likely folly. History has taught us that dictators do not play by those rules and ideologies.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Mine on this occasion. Exaggeration always means you lose the debate. It’s a real turn off and leads to people doing the opposite of what you wish. One of these two politicians is today justifying the loss of life from the invasion of another country that he has ordered. The other one isn’t.

170,000 deaths from the handling of Covid says your perspective may be different from others.

 

[birthofanorange]

There seems to be an misunderstanding from some quarters that we can wrestle control of this situation; we can’t. Sanctions will not halt Putin’s invasion of Ukraine; he will have been well prepared for those. We cannot put troops on the ground in Ukraine because, as you suggest, a meeting of western and Russian forces will lead to WW3.

What happens beyond there is up to Putin. He can do as he sees fit with Ukraine; the spectre of nuclear war will ultimately prevent anyone other than Ukraine’s own forces from intervening, and they are aren’t capable of defending their country against Russia’s massive army alone.

If he wishes to proceed into NATO territory, under any narrative whatsoever, then we’re going to have WW3 and we’re going to have nuclear war regardless. Until then, other than issue sanctions which will barely bloody Russia’s nose, the world can but watch and wait.

The west doesn’t want a world war. You would hope Putin doesn’t either, because it will mean the obliteration of his country and his people as well as ours and those of our allies. But no one other than Putin and perhaps select few know what his end game is. Maybe it’s not as extreme as many of us fear. Maybe this will ‘only’ end up being Ukraine’s problem.

Or maybe not. I know this; trying to guess what’s going on by applying the kind of civilian logic you or I possess is most likely folly. History has taught us that dictators do not play by those rules and ideologies.

Can't argue against any of that.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Nor do I but I have a good idea what will happen if we put troops on the ground in Ukraine. Not sure I am up to WW3 at the moment. We have to explore all other actions first, and no I don’t know what they should be either other than what is being done at the moment

To start with...

SWIFT ban (looks like Germany, Cyprus, Italy not on board though)
Travel ban on ALL Russians (to UK, Canada, EU, USA, Australia) - we need the people of Russia to see what this means for them.
Remove RT
Asset freeze on all Russians / Russian Companies - delisting from London/Frankfurt/New York these Russian Companies

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

170,000 deaths from the handling of Covid says your perspective may be different from others.

How is that relevant ? The Covid deaths number is published on the Gov website. There is no suggestion that it has been lied about (apart from by Covid conspiracy theorists) which would be the comparison with the lies being told by Lavrov. I’m going to leave it there. If you really think that Trump like equating of democratically elected politicians with tyrants is the way to go then fill your boots.

 

[MTSeagulls]

They have just shown on the news here in Brazil a car driving along the street and a Russian tank changing direction and running straight over the top of it.
They are now showing the rescue attempts and amazingly the elderly driver inside is alive despite the vehicoe being crushed.

 

[birthofanorange]

How is that relevant ? The Covid deaths number is published on the Gov website. There is no suggestion that it has been lied about (apart from by Covid conspiracy theorists) which would be the comparison with the lies being told by Lavrov. I’m going to leave it there. If you really think that Trump like equating of democratically elected politicians with tyrants is the way to go then fill your boots.

My take is that the only comparison that was originally being made, was that of the constant stream of lies, which emanates from them both - I don't think the content of the lies was being compared.
Lies are lies, whomever they come from.

 

[A1X]

There seems to be an misunderstanding from some quarters that we can wrestle control of this situation; we can’t. Sanctions will not halt Putin’s invasion of Ukraine; he will have been well prepared for those. We cannot put troops on the ground in Ukraine because, as you suggest, a meeting of western and Russian forces will lead to WW3.

What happens beyond there is up to Putin. He can do as he sees fit with Ukraine; the spectre of nuclear war will ultimately prevent anyone other than Ukraine’s own forces from intervening, and they are aren’t capable of defending their country against Russia’s massive army alone.

If he wishes to proceed into NATO territory, under any narrative whatsoever, then we’re going to have WW3 and we’re going to have nuclear war regardless. Until then, other than issue sanctions which will barely bloody Russia’s nose, the world can but watch and wait.

The west doesn’t want a world war. You would hope Putin doesn’t either, because it will mean the obliteration of his country and his people as well as ours and those of our allies. But no one other than Putin and perhaps select few know what his end game is. Maybe it’s not as extreme as many of us fear. Maybe this will ‘only’ end up being Ukraine’s problem.

Or maybe not. I know this; trying to guess what’s going on by applying the kind of civilian logic you or I possess is most likely folly. History has taught us that dictators do not play by those rules and ideologies.

This is spot on. Much as it pains us, there is only so much we can do. If it wasn't for nuclear weapons then Russia could be easily pushed back by conventional forces of the combined NATO effort, probably all the way back to Moscow. But we don't live in that world, and likely never will again. It's awful to sit here powerless, and I get why people are upset / angry at that, but unless you want a nuclear missile blowing up in your face then that is the only option we have militarily.

Ultimately, though, we can and should be doing more in Europe to counter Russia. There are essentially two issues at play;

1. The UK is hooked on Russian money, in the City of London, in London property ownership and in the fundraising efforts of the Conservative Party.
2. The EU is hooked on Russian energy, and despite making some moves toward weaning themselves off it have done nothing like enough for too long because it's easy and cheap.

Until those two are addressed, and both will involve some level of pain for those two, we will remain unable to properly do anything about Russia in these circumstances.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My take is that the only comparison that was originally being made, was that of the constant stream of lies, which emanates from them both - I don't think the content of the lies was being compared.
Lies are lies, whomever they come from.

Exactly and just as sickening no matter what the subject matter.

 

[BRIGHT ON Q]

Don't know a lot about this but say NATO had a little nibble back at Russia and Putin got the hump, being the mad man he is and worse case scenario he decided it was time for the nukes....... Is that it? Or would Russia have people to put the brakes on it?
Surely one nutter can't devastate the world.

 

[vegster]

They have just shown on the news here in Brazil a car driving along the street and a Russian tank changing direction and running straight over the top of it.
They are now showing the rescue attempts and amazingly the elderly driver inside is alive despite the vehicoe being crushed.

Horrifying !, I'm genuinely surprised though that there is so little footage of the conflict in the public domain given the huge number of camera phones these days ?

 

[birthofanorange]

Don't know a lot about this but say NATO had a little nibble back at Russia and Putin got the hump, being the mad man he is and worse case scenario he decided it was time for the nukes....... Is that it? Or would Russia have people to put the brakes on it?
Surely one nutter can't devastate the world.

You'd like to think they could put the brakes on, but with his level of power/control, is it something worth gambling on?

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

170,000 deaths from the handling of Covid says your perspective may be different from others.

154K in Italy
135K in France
122K in Germany
342K in Russia
943K in USA

Our Govt. has made some huge mistakes re COVID - as have all the above - but PLEASE can we keep this thread about the tragedy unfolding in Ukraine.

 

[Icy Gull]

To start with...

SWIFT ban (looks like Germany, Cyprus, Italy not on board though)
Travel ban on ALL Russians (to UK, Canada, EU, USA, Australia) - we need the people of Russia to see what this means for them.
Remove RT
Asset freeze on all Russians / Russian Companies - delisting from London/Frankfurt/New York these Russian Companies

Swamp Russia via the internet with media photos and clips of what is going on, they sure as hell won’t see anything but censored shit on Russian TV. I have no idea how easy this and whether there are blocks on foreign sites but we have some pretty smart guys in the West who work in this field, so there must be a way to hack into Russian internet.

I know I might be talking out of my arse but this is the way Russians will see the truth about what is going on in this “peace keeping” mission

From my naive perspective unrest all over Russia is the most likely way of bringing this megalomanic to heal

 

[Bold Seagull]

There seems to be an misunderstanding from some quarters that we can wrestle control of this situation; we can’t. Sanctions will not halt Putin’s invasion of Ukraine; he will have been well prepared for those. We cannot put troops on the ground in Ukraine because, as you suggest, a meeting of western and Russian forces will lead to WW3.

What happens beyond there is up to Putin. He can do as he sees fit with Ukraine; the spectre of nuclear war will ultimately prevent anyone other than Ukraine’s own forces from intervening, and they are aren’t capable of defending their country against Russia’s massive army alone.

If he wishes to proceed into NATO territory, under any narrative whatsoever, then we’re going to have WW3 and we’re going to have nuclear war regardless. Until then, other than issue sanctions which will barely bloody Russia’s nose, the world can but watch and wait.

The west doesn’t want a world war. You would hope Putin doesn’t either, because it will mean the obliteration of his country and his people as well as ours and those of our allies. But no one other than Putin and perhaps select few know what his end game is. Maybe it’s not as extreme as many of us fear. Maybe this will ‘only’ end up being Ukraine’s problem.

Or maybe not. I know this; trying to guess what’s going on by applying the kind of civilian logic you or I possess is most likely folly. History has taught us that dictators do not play by those rules and ideologies.

It's hard to know because the history of the Baltics and this region is soaked in bloodshed and goes back 100s of years. I can only make some weird analogy that if say Scotland and Wales got their full independence then over decades appeared to be aligning themselves and joining political unions with what we saw as our direct enemies, then it would be an uncomfortable situation. Perhaps the nationalistic rhetoric would be 'lets get Scotland and Wales back to make Britain Great again. History might suggest Putin isn't on some crazed mission to conquer Europe, but does feel that Ukraine allowed the freedom to stray toward the West has gone too far for their or his liking, and it's time to get them back in the fold - tragically by force. As you, I don't honestly know, the history though is interesting. The Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Russian wars with the Ottoman Empire - Ukraine and Crimea often the battle grounds over a long period of time. This is an interesting article in the Washington Post.