[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Eric the meek]

Landsbergis, perhaps the clearest voice amongst the allies.

Very good piece.

For me, point 8 is the crux:

'The "peace agreements" being floated would condemn millions of people to misery, occupation and fates worse than death.
Talk of "recovery" is hollow if Ukraine is left vulnerable, waiting for the next attack. Investments will not flow, refugees will not return'.

 

[raymondo]

Very good piece.

For me, point 8 is the crux:

'The "peace agreements" being floated would condemn millions of people to misery, occupation and fates worse than death.
Talk of "recovery" is hollow if Ukraine is left vulnerable, waiting for the next attack. Investments will not flow, refugees will not return'.

Yes, indeed, the whole piece is so strong and I hope a lot of people on this thread can find the 5 or 10 minutes to read it.
I'm thinking that it's a shame he isn't a leader in one of the large European/NATO countries, in the key meetings, influencing strategy fully.

 

[Eric the meek]

A glimpse into the future, beyond any peace agreement:

(Imagine this projected future, with the sanctions still in place).

 

[The Clamp]

A glimpse into the future, beyond any peace agreement:

(Imagine this projected future, with the sanctions still in place).

He also wanted people to inject bleach.

 

[Eric the meek]

He also wanted people to inject bleach.

Well yes, but back to the oil price, which is crucial to propping up Russia's economy next year.....

The article explains how Trump is seeking to increase US oil production. This would drive down the price of oil:

'Energy Intelligence projects that by May 2025, the price could reach $50 a barrel. This would hurt major oil exporters – Russia and Iran among them – as they won’t be able to sell their oil at relatively higher prices, as they did before. If you needed another explanation for the lukewarm reception of Trump’s victory in the Kremlin, this is a fairly good one – Russian elites are rightfully worried about what Trump’s presidency will do to their economy, already fragile because of the sanctions.'

 

[raymondo]

Russia relentlessly attacking Ukrainian citizens and infrastructure. Where's those promised air defense systems, allies?

 

[The Clamp]

I’m getting pretty despondent with the lack of serious help from the West.

We should be arming Ukraine enough to wipe Russia off the face of the earth on a daily basis.

Instead we sit in board rooms worrying about what Putin might do if we upset him.

f*** him. Throw a shit tonne of bombs at the Kremlin and let the moon-faced fucksack wet his panties .

 

[The Clamp]

72 hours of firing absolutely f***ing everything we’ve got into the Russian interior and blowing anything they send up out of the sky.

Blast those ****s back into the Stone Age.

I’d have aimed a nuke at the fucker the second they stepped over the border.

 

[fly high]

Russia relentlessly attacking Ukrainian citizens and infrastructure. Where's those promised air defense systems, allies?

That's second night running of mass bombing. Read somewhere yesterday Russia was trying to destroy Ukrainians morale to encourage them to accept Trump's peace plan.

 

[Eric the meek]

That's second night running of mass bombing. Read somewhere yesterday Russia was trying to destroy Ukrainians morale to encourage them to accept Trump's peace plan.

Those multiple attacks on Ukraine occurred at the same time as Putin sending the message to Trump that he is open for dialogue....

I believe Putin will push his demands to the nth degree, which will take time to wade through, and for Ukraine to mull over, kick around a bit, and then throw out at each juncture.

As far as I know, Zelensky has made all the right noises, suggesting to Trump he is on board with peace talks, while not agreeing to their contents. However, he has said he is wary of a fast track to peace.

A big problem IMO, is not just that the peace agreement as reported, is unacceptable to Ukraine, but the time gap. The gap between today, and the point at which Russia could collapse economically. The IMF says that Russia will run out of money late next year. Trump has said he wants the war stopped by the time he takes office in January.

Ukraine is going to have to tread a delicate path.

 

[Igzilla]

The latest 'Lines on Maps' view: TLDR - Putin pushing as hard as he can to get himself as much land before he has to negotiate. (Not rocket science, exactly).

 

[jcdenton08]

Just here for my monthly or so “f*** Putin”. Somehow double tap the bastard for the good of Russia as much as Europe.

 

[Eric the meek]

As I understand it, this is just one of several possible peace plans being looked at by Trump's team.

In it, I saw this glimmer of hope for Ukraine:

'Mike Pompeo, who served as Mr Trump’s secretary of state during his first term and is now tipped to head the Pentagon, has criticised the Biden administration for providing too little help too slowly and is likely to resist a deal that could be interpreted as a Russian victory.'

Trump mulls Ukraine peace plan: British troops patrolling an 800-mile buffer zone

First suggestions by president-elect to freeze war with Russia, as Putin says he is ready to talk with ‘courageous’ leader

www.telegraph.co.uk

Edit: if you read the section 'Russia expects ‘new territorial realities’, you might conclude that the chance of a deal being done in Trump's 24 hours, is approximately zero.

 

[raymondo]

Those multiple attacks on Ukraine occurred at the same time as Putin sending the message to Trump that he is open for dialogue....

I believe Putin will push his demands to the nth degree, which will take time to wade through, and for Ukraine to mull over, kick around a bit, and then throw out at each juncture.

As far as I know, Zelensky has made all the right noises, suggesting to Trump he is on board with peace talks, while not agreeing to their contents. However, he has said he is wary of a fast track to peace.

A big problem IMO, is not just that the peace agreement as reported, is unacceptable to Ukraine, but the time gap. The gap between today, and the point at which Russia could collapse economically. The IMF says that Russia will run out of money late next year. Trump has said he wants the war stopped by the time he takes office in January.

Ukraine is going to have to tread a delicate path.

Yes, the time gap is critical. If Ukraine can hold in there than anything is possible to collapse in Russia. But do western leaders actually want that . Putin will keep bluffing that Russia's economy is fine, it's what he does - are western leaders really smart enough to know the true picture, and what do they think about it?

 

[Eric the meek]

Yes, the time gap is critical. If Ukraine can hold in there than anything is possible to collapse in Russia. But do western leaders actually want that . Putin will keep bluffing that Russia's economy is fine, it's what he does - are western leaders really smart enough to know the true picture, and what do they think about it?

Not for the first time, you've reined me in @raymondo.

You are quite right. Just because I want Russia to collapse, undergo civil war and be dismembered, it doesn't mean that others do, including western leaders.

 

[raymondo]

As I understand it, this is just one of several possible peace plans being looked at by Trump's team.

In it, I saw this glimmer of hope for Ukraine:

'Mike Pompeo, who served as Mr Trump’s secretary of state during his first term and is now tipped to head the Pentagon, has criticised the Biden administration for providing too little help too slowly and is likely to resist a deal that could be interpreted as a Russian victory.'

Trump mulls Ukraine peace plan: British troops patrolling an 800-mile buffer zone

First suggestions by president-elect to freeze war with Russia, as Putin says he is ready to talk with ‘courageous’ leader

www.telegraph.co.uk

Edit: if you read the section 'Russia expects ‘new territorial realities’, you might conclude that the chance of a deal being done in Trump's 24 hours, is approximately zero.

Hmmm...couple of things from me after a quick skim (will read fully later):
- US would pump Ukraine full of weapons for defense....really?
- George Osborne (who tf is he??) said it's impossible for Europe to fend off Russian aggression without US support. Well, that's rubbish, or it should be rubbish. Collective Euroopean economies very large compared to Russia's. What bullshit. Let's all hide from reality

 

[raymondo]

Not for the first time, you've reined me in @raymondo.

You are quite right. Just because I want Russia to collapse, undergo civil war and be dismembered, it doesn't mean that others do, including western leaders.

Sorry. I'd love to be more positive but the US election was a hard earned lesson . And when I read Osborne's statement,,,I mean, if that's typical within our 'elite' then blimey, we're gonna roll over.

 

[Eric the meek]

Sorry. I'd love to be more positive but the US election was a hard earned lesson . And when I read Osborne's statement,,,I mean, if that's typical within our 'elite' then blimey, we're gonna roll over.

I understand. There's no need to apologise. We are all different, and you are closer to the effects of the war than many on here.

Of particular interest to me is the gradual economic collapse of Russia, which I believe if left alone, will happen. The only question is when. Nobody is going to help Russia the way the west has helped Ukraine. Not Iran. Not North Korea. China is hovering and has already taken two bites out of Siberia.

 

[fly high]

Sorry. I'd love to be more positive but the US election was a hard earned lesson . And when I read Osborne's statement,,,I mean, if that's typical within our 'elite' then blimey, we're gonna roll over.

Osborne is and always has been a complete moron (being polite), he is not one of our elite and since leaving Parliament is always trying and failing to make himself relevant, which he isn't.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Hmmm...couple of things from me after a quick skim (will read fully later):
- US would pump Ukraine full of weapons for defense....really?
- George Osborne (who tf is he??) said it's impossible for Europe to fend off Russian aggression without US support. Well, that's rubbish, or it should be rubbish. Collective Euroopean economies very large compared to Russia's. What bullshit. Let's all hide from reality

Russia couldn’t take Ukraine, so how the flying f*** would they be able to take the rest of Europe. The Czechs and Slovaks hate the Russians, add in the Polish and Baltic states then Russia would be toast.