[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[essbee1]

We have boots on the ground. In NATO countries. That’s the deal.

If Putin tries entering Poland he’s going to find his troops dumped very unceremoniously back on his side of the border in very short order. Same in the Baltic states. And, soon, Finland.

What's your point A1X?

 

[A1X]

Doesn’t have to be NATO. We can act independently if we wish.

And Putin will definitely be clear to spell out the difference to his allies, won’t he? Reliable actor that he is.

 

[The Clamp]

And Putin will definitely be clear to spell out the difference to his allies, won’t he? Reliable actor that he is.

You worry too much about upsetting Putin.

 

[A1X]

What's your point A1X?

My point is we shouldn’t be putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. Give the
Ukrainians what they ask for in hardware, trust them to do the job. NATO doesn’t get involved directly until NATO is invaded.

 

[GT49er]

And if NATO walked into Ukraine tomorrow and, a fortnight from now, had cleared the country of Russian troops and blown up the Kerch bridge, how would Putin react to that? Sit back and say “jolly good show, old chaps, you certainly had the beating of me there”?

I guess we'd find out how good our anti-missile defensive shields are?

Probably St. Petersburg would cease to exist, and I wouldn't want to be hanging around in Moscow either.

 

[essbee1]

My point is we shouldn’t be putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. Give the
Ukrainians what they ask for in hardware, trust them to do the job. NATO doesn’t get involved directly until NATO is invaded.

Yes. But that seems to be not happening. That's why we're saying what we're saying ffs.

 

[A1X]

You worry too much about upsetting Putin.

I’m not worried about upsetting Putin. I’m worried about any possibility which sees the likelihood of my constituent atoms floating in the breeze around a smoking, radioactive crater that used to be Sussex.

Putin wants NATO to come steaming in. I’d rather we didn’t give him what he wants.

 

[A1X]

Yes. But that seems to be not happening. That's why we're saying what we're saying ffs.

That’s largely the fault of Congress, and hopefully that changes soon.

 

[essbee1]

Fingers crossed. Really.

 

[The Clamp]

I’m not worried about upsetting Putin. I’m worried about any possibility which sees the likelihood of my constituent atoms floating in the breeze around a smoking, radioactive crater that used to be Sussex.

Putin wants NATO to come steaming in. I’d rather we didn’t give him what he wants.

We will have to disagree on that one. Putin definitely does not want NATO to come in.

He is banking on NATO staying out .

If we had put in a display of force two years ago, I strongly doubt Putin would have crossed the border.

He exploits weakness. We are being weak. He is exploiting it.

He would shit himself if we called his bluff.

As I said, doesn’t have to be NATO.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

We will have to disagree on that one. Putin definitely does not want NATO to come in.

He is banking on NATO staying out .

If we had put in a display of force two years ago, I strongly doubt Putin would have crossed the border.

He exploits weakness. We are being weak. He is exploiting it.

He would shit himself if we called his bluff.

As I said, doesn’t have to be NATO.

I have some doubts about our army's capability to cover for the fire brigade going on strike again, much less a major land war on the other side of the continent.

 

[beorhthelm]

My point is we shouldn’t be putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. Give the
Ukrainians what they ask for in hardware, trust them to do the job. NATO doesn’t get involved directly until NATO is invaded.

yeh, would be very counterproductive and strategic fail to deploy troops. some members might talk about it, wont be more than that.

 

[Triggaaar]

Putin is a direct threat to European peace and our way of life.

Boots on the ground.

Boots on the ground may increase the threat to European peace etc.

 

[GT49er]

Boots on the ground may increase the threat to European peace etc.

Russian boots on the ground would certainly be a bugger over here.

 

[sparkie]

I’m not worried about upsetting Putin. I’m worried about any possibility which sees the likelihood of my constituent atoms floating in the breeze around a smoking, radioactive crater that used to be Sussex.

Putin wants NATO to come steaming in. I’d rather we didn’t give him what he wants.

The last thing Putin wants is NATO troops to get involved.

All his rhetoric is to stop that.

He is a risk averse coward - as shown when he fled Moscow when Prigozhin was advancing.


A large NATO deployment in Ukraine west of the dnipro river would bring him to the negotiating table in seconds.

 

[Binney on acid]

He'll never negotiate a peace settlement that involves conceding an inch of stolen ground. He's in this for the long term. As he sees it, there's tens of thousands of Russians in bodybags, trying to defend the motherland. All of the mechanisms are in place. Opposition interned. Control of the media. The west divided. He's even got them drip feeding Ukraine with diluted sanctions, and supplying enough weapons to prolong the war, not end it. His wartime economy is flourishing, He's created the circumstances that render NATO ineffective. He's not going to touch a NATO country. Not this time...............

 

[beorhthelm]

The last thing Putin wants is NATO troops to get involved.

All his rhetoric is to stop that.

He is a risk averse coward - as shown when he fled Moscow when Prigozhin was advancing.


A large NATO deployment in Ukraine west of the dnipro river would bring him to the negotiating table in seconds.

while you may be right on the coward part, he is not stable decision maker. it would be an extremely high risk strategy to deploy NATO and call his bluff. high risk due to the consequnces if we get that wrong. after years of saying the war to protect Russia from NATO, putting NATO troops in the front line gives him a massive win.

 

[Eric the meek]

Has anyone considered whether the discussions (at national level) around putting Nato boots on the ground in Ukraine, may be co-ordinated?

Macron seems to be in favour. Then Scholz says no. Then US, UK and Italy say no. It's all good. France steps out of line and the rest rein him in.
That may be how it happened. But I'm left wondering if there is an element of 'forward guidance' in there. A veiled warning to Putin.

After all, 'Nato expansion' and talk of Ukraine joining Nato were cited by Putin as the reasons for the invasion of Ukraine. Putin is afraid of Nato, even though we know it is a defensive organisation. So why wouldn't we use that knowledge? Putin has been issuing threats to half the world for years.

 

[perth seagull]

Has anyone considered whether the discussions (at national level) around putting Nato boots on the ground in Ukraine, may be co-ordinated?

Macron seems to be in favour. Then Scholz says no. Then US, UK and Italy say no. It's all good. France steps out of line and the rest rein him in.
That may be how it happened. But I'm left wondering if there is an element of 'forward guidance' in there. A veiled warning to Putin.

After all, 'Nato expansion' and talk of Ukraine joining Nato were cited by Putin as the reasons for the invasion of Ukraine. Putin is afraid of Nato, even though we know it is a defensive organisation. So why wouldn't we use that knowledge? Putin has been issuing threats to half the world for years.

I would not be surprised at all. Classic 'good cop bad cop' routine and probably typical scheming that goes on in international diplomacy.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I would not be surprised at all. Classic 'good cop bad cop' routine and probably typical scheming that goes on in international diplomacy.

I don't believe that European countries are currently capable of scheming on this level.

Scholz is looking after his arse electorally. So is Macron.

There's no deeper plan