[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Eric the meek]

Go back and read my original post. The Russian army has not been driven out. No territory won back by Ukraine.

You're clutching at straws because you're emotionally invested but that doesn't change the facts.

Nicely dodged.

 

[thejackal]

How about with answering the question:







Putin's soldiers had uniforms specifically for marching in Kyiv to claim total victory. He also stated at other times that Ukraine had no right to exist and it was clear from the military column he sent to Kyiv that he intended to take it. Remember what he said in the days before the invasion? 'We're not going to invade, it's just military exercises.' And then in the days afterwards - it's not a war, it's just a special military operation.




And yet everyone here thinks it's you that's talking out your backside.

“There is no Ukraine”: Fact-Checking the Kremlin’s Version of Ukrainian History

The notion that Ukraine is not a country, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of Russian leadership. Competing interpretations of history have turned into a…

blogs.lse.ac.uk

What Putin Gets Wrong About Ukraine's Statehood

Experts say Putin’s remarks are intended to justify Russian claims over Ukraine

time.com

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/opinion/ukraine-war-national-identity.html

Speech by President von der Leyen at the European Parliament Plenary on the Russian aggression against Ukraine

This is a moment of truth for Europe.

ec.europa.eu

I don't care what the mob on here thinks. I can't help you with that.

Honestly, I love NSC but this really demonstrates the worst of it.

Alternative perspectives are ridiculed and lone voices shouted down by the uninformed.

Your links aren't very good. 2 op-eds and a speech by Ursula VL.

Why don't you just admit that you're emotionally invested in this issue and triggered by opposing views.

 

[thejackal]

Nicely dodged.

There's literally no arguing with people like you

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't believe that was their objective.

From Wikipedia:


The 3 days was a "commonly reached conclusion" by pundits, not a stated aim of the Russians.

really? then what was Russia's objective? and why did it require sending an army group through the north to Kyiv, which along with their "elite" airborne division got soundly thrashed?

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't care what the mob on here thinks. I can't help you with that.

Honestly, I love NSC but this really demonstrates the worst of it.

Everyone thinks you're wrong, I'm not sure how to help you. If you don't care what anyone here thinks, then maybe don't waste your time with propaganda that none of us believe.

Alternative perspectives are ridiculed and lone voices shouted down by the uninformed.

Not at all, people have given you space to say what you think. You've made lots of spurious claims, none of which you've been able to back up, and now you're unhappy that we don't believe you.

Your links aren't very good. 2 op-eds and a speech by Ursula VL.

You don't like my links (which are to respected sources), but I've asked you twice to say who are the commentators that you claim are impartial, but you won't answer.

Why don't you just admit that you're emotionally invested in this issue and triggered by opposing views.

Because that would be incorrect. You try and claim things as fact, and it's easy to prove you wrong:
It is a fact that Ukraine have retaken some areas that Russia took - indisputable fact - yet you argue the opposite.
On many occasions Putin claimed that Ukraine didn't have a right to exist, and as Eric pointed out, that he was going to demilitarize Ukraine and remove the Nazis, but you know he hasn't done that, yet you claim he's completed his objective.

 

[thejackal]

Here is an extract from a Putin quote that you, yourself posted:

'To this end, we will seek to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine'

Has Putin achieved the demilitarisation of Ukraine? No.
Has Putin achieved the 'denazification' of Ukraine(assuming any nazis exist)? Given he only controls 20% of Ukraine, then 80% of nazis in Ukraine are still there.

How does this possibly fulfill your claim 'Clearly, by anyone's measure, the Russians have met their objectives' ?

Actually Russia has removed the Ukrainian military from the Eastern part of the country.

Denazification, your guess is as good as mine.

Fair enough, I will concede that they haven't met all of their objectives but obviously they've met more of theirs than Ukraine, who clearly have not achieved any.

 

[Triggaaar]

Fair enough, I will concede that they haven't met all of their objectives but obviously they've met more of theirs than Ukraine, who clearly have not achieved any.

Yes they have:

Russia tried to take Kyiv, as well as the rest of the country. Ukraine's primary objective was to stop the whole country falling under Russian control - success - and then to repel Russia from Kyiv - success.

 

[thejackal]

really? then what was Russia's objective? and why did it require sending an army group through the north to Kyiv, which along with their "elite" airborne division got soundly thrashed?

Oh dear, they're all coming out of the woodwork now. I don't claim to be an expert on the Russian military. If you want these answers then do your own research.

 

[raymondo]

Too late to pick holes in it now. The damage is done. Besides the plane has joined the Russian Black Sea fleet. Why do you find it so difficult to accept this?

Anyway, here's the BBC report on the oil loading terminal at St. Petersburg, and the gunpowder factory at Tambov, two events you told us you found depressing.

Ukraine war: Russian oil depot hit in Ukrainian drone attack

Fire breaks out over a large area in the Bryansk region, a day after another oil facility is targeted.

www.bbc.co.uk

Do you think these events are linked to the spy plane going down?

Ukraine is up to something. An oil loading terminal to keep the pressure on the collapsing utility industries? You will only know about these things if you read the evidence of course. The gunpowder factory at Tambov is an interesting one. Tambov is on the way to the southern military hub of Rostov-on-Don, which supplies the Russian war effort in Ukraine.

There is a stalemate on the ground. But Ukraine is bypassing the stalemate and taking the war deep inside Russia. At the moment, it is going for infrastructure and military targets. Last winter, Ukraine was freezing. This winter, it's Russia.

Two things I found particularly interesting in that BBC article:
1. Russian air defence say they downed the drone at Klintsy but the explosives then dropped on the oil storage. So, they did not prevent the drone reaching its target.
2. The German defence minister, Pistorius, warns that Russia could prepare it's military for an attack on a NATO country within 5 years.
I think Europe is slowly waking up.

 

[danish seagull]

Actually Russia has removed the Ukrainian military from the Eastern part of the country.

Denazification, your guess is as good as mine.

Fair enough, I will concede that they haven't met all of their objectives but obviously they've met more of theirs than Ukraine, who clearly have not achieved any.

f*** me I have seen a magnitude of stupid shit on here but that is right up there

 

[thejackal]

Everyone thinks you're wrong, I'm not sure how to help you. If you don't care what anyone here thinks, then maybe don't waste your time with propaganda that none of us believe.



Not at all, people have given you space to say what you think. You've made lots of spurious claims, none of which you've been able to back up, and now you're unhappy that we don't believe you.



You don't like my links (which are to respected sources), but I've asked you twice to say who are the commentators that you claim are impartial, but you won't answer.



Because that would be incorrect. You try and claim things as fact, and it's easy to prove you wrong:
It is a fact that Ukraine have retaken some areas that Russia took - indisputable fact - yet you argue the opposite.
On many occasions Putin claimed that Ukraine didn't have a right to exist, and as Eric pointed out, that he was going to demilitarize Ukraine and remove the Nazis, but you know he hasn't done that, yet you claim he's completed his objective.

Everyone thinks you're wrong?! Do me a favour pal.

I haven't posted any Russian propaganda. My info is from (as posted) Glenn Greenwald, Carnegie Endowment, Responsible Statecraft, NYT, etc.

I'm not suggesting that anyone is completely impartial but you get a more balanced view from people with no dog in the race. And you get a much more balanced view by taking multiple sources, not just those you agree with.

You're wrong that I'm unhappy that you don't believe me. I didn't post on this thread to convince anyone of my pov. I was just stating what I've been hearing and reading from multiple sources, including those that don't share my world view, namely that the narrative around the war has changed recently from one of "we will win" to one of "what will the peace look like". This is a good thing for those having to live through war, but for many on the Ukrainian side appears to be too much to take.


Again, you're right that there have been exchanges of territory on the battlefield but the unhappy fact is that the Russians have ended up (now at least) with more territory than it started with.

We csn split hairs over detail but my original point remains true.

 

[thejackal]

f*** me I have seen a magnitude of stupid shit on here but that is right up there

Touché

 

[hampshirebrightonboy]

What?!? We're talking about Russia's stated objectives. Who else would I quote? Boris?!

This is getting stupid.

I'm not supporting Russia here but you guys are just spouting baseless talking points with no evidence.

It’s an age old tactic. Your fellow countrymen are being persecuted so you have to invade to save them, Hiltler used it.
There are Russians in Moldova and the Baltic states just waiting to be persecuted so Putin has an excuse to invade when the time is right.

 

[chickens]

Russia has failed in all its major objectives, it is currently holding on to a chunk of Ukrainian territory, but it has been unable to push further forward., and was actually pushed backward and out of several areas across the last year.

The general Russian population are beginning to feel the joint effects of conscription and economic sanctions. The Russian economy has not collapsed entirely, but it’s far from thriving, and parents are beginning to realise that their kids aren’t coming home.

In addition, Russia’s actions have brought previously neutral nations into NATO, the exact opposite of its stated aims. The path to further Russian expansion is now blocked by NATO.

All the while the war seemed distant, Putin could do what he wanted, but even the most subservient of civilians notice when warehouses and refineries begin exploding in their cities, and nobody likes having the heating broken in a cold snap. The very same tactics that the Russians used on Ukraine, are now being used on Russia’s citizens.

Does Ukraine continue to rely upon Western support? Absolutely. Does Russia have the money, technology and skilled personnel to repair their internal infrastructure and maintain pressure on Ukraine? We will see.

There is no way on earth that this can be dressed up as a win for Putin.

 

[thejackal]

It’s an age old tactic. Your fellow countrymen are being persecuted so you have to invade to save them, Hiltler used it.
There are Russians in Moldova and the Baltic states just waiting to be persecuted so Putin has an excuse to invade when the time is right.

Putin didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade Ukraine. This conflict has been going on for more than a decade.

There's no indication that Russia intends to invade anyone else.

 

[Triggaaar]

Honestly, I love NSC but this really demonstrates the worst of it.

Alternative perspectives are ridiculed and lone voices shouted down by the uninformed.

So you say you're a lone voice that is being shouted down. Ok.

Everyone thinks you're wrong?! Do me a favour pal.

Er, you just admitted that you're on your own and being shouted down


Will try and reply later, but Friday night calls

 

[hampshirebrightonboy]

Putin didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade Ukraine. This conflict has been going on for more than a decade.

There's no indication that Russia intends to invade anyone else.

He didn’t he sowed the seeds in 2014 and then started to prepare to invade the rest of the country

 

[thejackal]

So you say you're a lone voice that is being shouted down. Ok.




Er, you just admitted that you're on your own and being shouted down


Will try and reply later, but Friday night calls

I'm the only one posting this here, now, yeah.

I'm sure you can appreciate the response I got doesn't exactly encourage anyone to chime in my defence!

 

[thejackal]

Russia has failed in all its major objectives, it is currently holding on to a chunk of Ukrainian territory, but it has been unable to push further forward., and was actually pushed backward and out of several areas across the last year.

The general Russian population are beginning to feel the joint effects of conscription and economic sanctions. The Russian economy has not collapsed entirely, but it’s far from thriving, and parents are beginning to realise that their kids aren’t coming home.

In addition, Russia’s actions have brought previously neutral nations into NATO, the exact opposite of its stated aims. The path to further Russian expansion is now blocked by NATO.

All the while the war seemed distant, Putin could do what he wanted, but even the most subservient of civilians notice when warehouses and refineries begin exploding in their cities, and nobody likes having the heating broken in a cold snap. The very same tactics that the Russians used on Ukraine, are now being used on Russia’s citizens.

Does Ukraine continue to rely upon Western support? Absolutely. Does Russia have the money, technology and skilled personnel to repair their internal infrastructure and maintain pressure on Ukraine? We will see.

There is no way on earth that this can be dressed up as a win for Putin.

You make some good points, some of which are mentioned here.

Putin's chances of winning Ukraine war look bright

"If we don't do anything different than we're doing now, eventually, Ukraine will lose."

www.newsweek.com

Putin's Chances of Winning Ukraine War Look Bright - Newsweek

 

[Eric the meek]

Two things I found particularly interesting in that BBC article:
1. Russian air defence say they downed the drone at Klintsy but the explosives then dropped on the oil storage. So, they did not prevent the drone reaching its target.
2. The German defence minister, Pistorius, warns that Russia could prepare it's military for an attack on a NATO country within 5 years.
I think Europe is slowly waking up.

1. Good old Russian disinformation again. Russians just can't help themselves. If you watched the first 9 minutes of the Jake Broe video, you will see that they are admitting the spy plane was shot down, but not by Ukraine, instead claiming it was shot down by friendly fire. So the incompetence of friendly fire is more preferable than letting the Russian masses know the truth - that Ukraine can shoot down their spy planes. Absolutely fantastic.

2. Sweden also mentioned they should prepare for the possibility of war. I assume it is a co-ordinated effort, and also assume it is based on real intelligence.

I mentioned the spy plane because it is thought that Russia has only a handful of A-50 command and control spy planes, spread thinly patrolling the vast areas of the Arctic, the far east opposite Alaska, the Chinese border, the Baltic/Kaliningrad/St. Petersburg, maybe a separate one for Moscow, and of course Ukraine and the Black Sea. When the Ukraine one was shot down, they would have had to pull one from elsewhere to replace it. So there is potentially a shifting hole in Russia's early warning system.