The Clamp
Well-known member
Reports of Russian troops using shovels as weapons as they have no ammo.
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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
The Clamp
Well-known member
Yes, I saw this. Very disturbing. Basically trying to brainwash the younger ones and murder the older ones. Done so that they don’t face any resistance from the next generation of Ukrainians.
How I would love to see Putin and his inner circle hanged in public.
Rather suggests their imminent takeover of Bakhmut might not be quite so imminent as was thought then?
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,378
You're right, but I'm not convinced Chinas starting point is to see Ukraine fail. I dont think they really care that much about Ukraine tbh, its the bigger geo political considerations at play.... Even their partnership with Moscow is not ideologically driven but a marriage of convenience as oppostion to US hegemony.
I'm not convinced China is all that happy with where things are at, peaceful world stability is better for the trade they rely on, but now we are where we are and Putin has gone all in, China will see Russia failing and how that US/NATO victory would translate across the globe, as a huge risk to its desires for global supremacy and breaking US hegemony, Especially in places like SE Asia and Africa where China is competing for interests against the US.
Both Russia and China want a muti polar world where US dominance is broken, and Russia losing (which by default is US success), is the thing China wants to prevent.
Don't think they will arm Russia directly, but as they are effectively the only Oxygen for Kim Jong Un and N Korea, I'd expect them to lean on him to supply Russia or to provide certain tech to N Korea which will then end up in Moscow. They will do it, but without their fingerprints on it.
No I don't think that's the starting point. I think they want democracy to fail and autocracy to win. From there, they see it as their interest for Ukraine to fail, as Ukraine succeeding is best for democratic countries.
Yep
I don't understand this, because they can't use shovels as weapons unless Ukrainians also don't have guns (because obviously they wouldn't get close enough).
The Clamp
Well-known member
They’re using sidearms and then shovels in close quarter combat. Several reports in Apple News round up from various sauces.
I’m assuming this would be in urban and built up areas as oppose to open country where, as you say, shovels would be of no use.
So essentially the Russian army are now fighting a war like the early stages of playing GTA when you have a baseball bat and can’t afford to buy guns yet?
Even in urban areas, a side arm would be a better choice than a shovel.
Of course in any war it's possible for two sides to get close enough to use melee weapons, after shooting at each other and closing the distance, but the suggestion is that the Russians don't have rifles, so they're going in to a gun fight with just a shovel, and managing to use it. That seems unlikely.
The Clamp
Well-known member
Well, I’m not an expert but if you have a sidearm that then runs out of ammo and you have nowhere to retreat, ie no choice but to fight, you’ll use anything to hand.
Hand to hand combat is a very common occurrence in close quarter combat so I’m not sure why it’s so hard to believe.
There’s a reason the bayonet was utilised in previous wars.
As I say, I’m no expert but it’s not that hard to believe, surely?
The Clamp
Well-known member
Ukraine war: Russian reservists fighting with shovels - UK defence ministry - BBC News
Troops could be engaging in hand-to-hand combat in Ukraine, Britain's defence ministry says.
www.bbc.co.uk
The Clamp
Well-known member
Ukraine LIVE: Russian troops forced to fight with ‘shovels’ in ‘brutal’ close-combat fight | World | News | Express.co.uk
Russian forces are suffering from a lack of munition supplies after months of using heavy artillery tactics to destroy Ukrainian positions prior to attacking.
www.express.co.uk
The Clamp
Well-known member
Russian Troops Being Sent Into Battle With Shovels, According To UK Intelligence
"Brutal and low-tech fighting has come to characterise much of the war", the MoD said.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,378
It's true and happening in bakhmut. Russian side starved of ammo is sending men forward with shovels.
Likewise
Yes of course people will use anything to hand if they have to. But the report is suggesting that they don't have enough weapons/ammo, and therefore the shovel is their main choice of weapon. If they run out of ammo, presumably they won't mount an attack, and if attacked, they'd retreat.
Bayonets were used on single shot rifles that couldn't be reloaded quickly with another 30 rounds, so there'd be a chance of rushing an enemy, while firing some shots, and closing the distance. In a war where every soldier should have an automatic rifle, I'd expect a melee weapon to only be used on rare occasions, rather than be an option as a primary weapon.
It just seems to me like trying to make a headline of 'Russia out of ammo'. If they're really out of ammo, I expect them to retreat. They cannot fight a war against Ukraine with the shovel as their primary weapon (all only IMO obvs)
Ukraine war: Russian reservists fighting with shovels - UK defence ministry - BBC News
Troops could be engaging in hand-to-hand combat in Ukraine, Britain's defence ministry says.
Maybe it's all completely true. But I'll highlight these two points:
1) The BBC has been unable to independently verify these reports.
2) In late February, reservists described being ordered to assault a Ukrainian position "armed with only 'firearms and shovels'"
If they're armed with firearms and shovels, then they're armed with firearms. The shovels bit is fairly irrelevant.
Some of the crucial battles in the Falklands were won by British toops bayonetting the Argentines.
But I imagine the British troops had rifles and ammunition, and used those too. If we only had bayonets I imagine we'd have lost.
The Clamp
Well-known member
I’m not getting into one of your sentence by sentence analytical debates.
The shovels are very relevant. If you have firearms and not much ammo, you’ll preserve your ammo and fight with other means.
They are being sent into combat with dwindling ammo and shovels. It’s a very common tactic when troops are low on ammo.
I’m open to the possibility that these reports could be propaganda. However, I trust military intelligence.
NB- it’s my understanding that bayonets are still used, long after single shot rifles are used. When I trained with SA80’s in the early 90’s, they had bayonet lugs on them.
The shovels are very relevant. If you have firearms and not much ammo, you’ll preserve your ammo and fight with other means.
They are being sent into combat with dwindling ammo and shovels. It’s a very common tactic when troops are low on ammo.
I’m open to the possibility that these reports could be propaganda. However, I trust military intelligence.
NB- it’s my understanding that bayonets are still used, long after single shot rifles are used. When I trained with SA80’s in the early 90’s, they had bayonet lugs on them.
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What, in preference to NSC?
