[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[The Clamp]

I think you know more about him than I do. The obvious question though is that if he such a threat then why doesn’t Putin simply have him bumped off now ? Wouldn’t be that difficult and Putin’s reputation can hardly go lower. He has a free hit.

Well, it’s a very good point. He may already have been killed. He was imprisoned in early 2021 and I’m not sure when the last “proof of life” was established.

I did make an edit to my last post whereby I wrote that vitally, his ambition is not necessarily to become president of Russia but to establish a system whereby the Russian electorate are objectively informed and are free to choose their own leader. A democracy.
He’s a very interesting man, well worth reading up on.

I also edited that I didn’t compare Putin to Trump and Johnson as you claimed, rather I compared the effect the news some of the electorate chooses to consume has.

Although I would be as bold as to say that both Trump and Johnson are as corrupt as they can get away with, in the system they operate within. As is Putin. I would be comfortable making that comparison.

 

[Triggaaar]

In the same vein, your comparisons of Putin with Western politicians you dislike are a little tiresome.

That's an understatement.

 

[NooBHA]

Well, it’s a very good point. He may already have been killed. He was imprisoned in early 2021 and I’m not sure when the last “proof of life” was established.

I did make an edit to my last post whereby I wrote that vitally, his ambition is not necessarily to become president of Russia but to establish a system whereby the Russian electorate are objectively informed and are free to choose their own leader. A democracy.
He’s a very interesting man, well worth reading up on.

I also edited that I didn’t compare Putin to Trump and Johnson as you claimed, rather I compared the effect the news some of the electorate chooses to consume has.

Although I would be as bold as to say that both Trump and Johnson are as corrupt as they can get away with, in the system they operate within. As is Putin. I would be comfortable making that comparison.

We might be running before we can walk here.

There is no " traction" or "appetite" for a Political Figure like Navalny Yet in Russia.

There has to be an emerging political figure willing to do the evil deed of bumping off Putin first and that can only be done by someone who could command the support of the Military.

I fear we are still at least 15 years or so away from Russia behind ready for a Navalny type figure in Russia.

Everyone around Putin is " compromised" by 20 years or more of Putin's Corruption. Consequently that era of corrupt powerful group are going to have to die off or go to jail before Russia can move on.

 

[The Clamp]

That's an understatement.

You’ve misunderstood. I didn’t compare Putin to western leaders in my first post .I compared the electorates.
Do you know what is getting tiresome though? You failing to comprehend posts and wading in with your snidely remarks and protracted, incorrect analysis of posts you haven’t understood. You stopped doing it for a while but you seem to be back with a vengeance.

It’s a shame because it was a valid and relevant point that I made, dismissed by a couple of people who didn’t understand it. Or don’t know who I’m talking about.

Don’t bother replying, I do not wish to derail the thread and frankly you bore me.

 

[The Clamp]

We might be running before we can walk here.

There is no " traction" or "appetite" for a Political Figure like Navalny Yet in Russia.

There has to be an emerging political figure willing to do the evil deed of bumping off Putin first and that can only be done by someone who could command the support of the Military.

I fear we are still at least 15 years or so away from Russia behind ready for a Navalny type figure in Russia.

Everyone around Putin is " compromised" by 20 years or more of Putin's Corruption. Consequently that era of corrupt powerful group are going to have to die off or go to jail before Russia can move on.

I think you’re right in that we have at least a few years of turmoil before a democracy can be established but I think that’s down to the Russian inner circle. Navalny seems to have gained at least a hardcore of support with thousands protesting at the Kremlin when he was imprisoned.

But yeah, it’s likely going to take time. Although we can always hope for a metaphorical “Berlin Wall” revolution.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

‘Russian warship, go …!’: Ukrainians queue for stamp celebrating act of defiance

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-queue-for-stamp-celebrating-act-of-defiance

 

[Triggaaar]

You’ve misunderstood. I didn’t compare Putin to western leaders in my first post .I compared the electorates.

I know that you compare how poorly informed those are who support Putin and Johnson. I find that comparison obtuse and, to be honest, offensive. A lot of people who voted for Johnson don't like him and don't trust him, but the alternative was Corbyn, and that was a more frightening alternative for many. I didn't vote Tory, because I'm anti Johnson, but it's still tiresome to read of 'criminal Johnson' in a thread about a war where thousands of innocent civilians are being killed, while many people in Russia continue to believe that Putin is a goody.

Do you know what is getting tiresome though? You failing to comprehend posts and wading in with your snidely remarks and protracted, incorrect analysis of posts you haven’t understood. You stopped doing it for a while but you seem to be back with a vengeance.

Bit of an over-reaction I think. I've not been making snide remarks about you. I disagreed with you posting your wish for all Russian soldiers to suffer gruesome deaths, and you yourself reflected and thought you shouldn't have said it. You've then taken the piss of those who disagree with your wish.

It’s a shame because it was a valid and relevant point that I made, dismissed by a couple of people who didn’t understand it. Or don’t know who I’m talking about.

I don't agree that your point was valid. Whilst I don't, and never will support Johnson, I can understand why decent people do. That is not the same with Putin. He is an evil war criminal, and anyone who knows what he's like and still supports him, is also evil.

Don’t bother replying, I do not wish to derail the thread and frankly you bore me.

I've replied because I don't agree with your points. Many times you've resorted to insulting me when we disagree. If you don't want to derail the thread, then maybe just disagree with me and move on, you don't need to be offensive.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

My hope for Russia, and subsequently the rest of Europe is not only that Putin is unequivocally defeated, captured and tried but that Alexei Navany then gets released from prison and goes on to become President of Russia. I believe he is their best hope of restoring order and ushering in a new age for Russia. He has the potential to be Russia’s Mandela.

After being poisoned for opposing Putin he got out to Germany, instead of staying safe he chose to go back to Russia, knowing he would go to prison or worse. But he knew unless he stood shoulder to shoulder with his fellow Russians he could never gain their trust. Brave man.

The problem being of course, that like Trump, like convicted criminal Johnson, they enjoy the support of poorly informed, even lazy sections of the electorate. People who consume pre-digested news.

The problem In Russia is even if you can convince the electorate that Putin is not acting in their interests, which is hard as unlike western democracies many of them simply do not have access to anything other than propaganda “news”, they are still afraid to protest or vote against him. Luckily a problem we don’t have in Britain. Yet. Though that may change with convicted criminal, Boris Johnson’s anti-protest bill.

Which is why Putin and his government has to be removed before a democratic election can take place.

How likely all those elements are to come together? I don’t know but I think it’s the best possible outcome.

This thread below picks up on Navalny being the Putin successor, but is gloomy that a "Good Tsar" is the answer.

[Tweet]1509983168522293250[/Tweet]

 

[The Clamp]

This thread below picks up on Navalny being the Putin successor, but is gloomy that a "Good Tsar" is the answer.

[Tweet]1509983168522293250[/Tweet]

Thank you for your usual considered, relevant reply. I shall look forward to looking at that thread. Also looking forward to the documentary.

 

[essbee1]

Yes, and more Ukrainian civilians will die than Russian conscripts. Personally I'm fine with the death of these young conscripts because I see it as a necessary event in order for the war to end, but I certainly don't agree with the delight in those deaths being gruesome, that you and Clamp have.

Trigaaar,

I can't go into detail, but I have a very personal reason for my actions - and that dictates why I so delight in the
demise of the Russian scum.

 

[Triggaaar]

Trigaaar,

I can't go into detail, but I have a very personal reason for my actions - and that dictates why I so delight in the
demise of the Russian scum.

Well you don't owe me or anyone an explanation.

I desperately want Russia to lose this war. If that means thousands of Russian soldiers dying, I'm ok with that. But personally I don't think it's right to assume that every Russian soldier is scum who deserves to die slowly and painfully. If particular events in your life have left you damaged, then I can understand your hatred, even though I still disagree with it.

 

[The Clamp]

Some posts make me wonder how people think people die in thunderous armed conflict? Peacefully at home with their family around them and whale song playing in the background?

 

[essbee1]

Well you don't owe me or anyone an explanation.

I desperately want Russia to lose this war. If that means thousands of Russian soldiers dying, I'm ok with that. But personally I don't think it's right to assume that every Russian soldier is scum who deserves to die slowly and painfully. If particular events in your life have left you damaged, then I can understand your hatred, even though I still disagree with it.

I have a scenario for you Trigaaar. In North Africa in the second world war, the fledgling SAS (formerly the LRDG) used to carry out raids
on German airfields to destroy as many aircraft as they could. And they were devastatingly good at it. Most times, they legged it out
of the area pronto after setting charges. On one occasion however, one deliberately sought out the German air crews in their messes first and
shot them up to shit in cold blood by surprise. Nasty business - nasty death. But those air crew would have been given new aircraft eventually
and then go and kill hundreds of Allied soldiers once more in bombing raids.

 

[Triggaaar]

Some posts make me wonder how people think people die in thunderous armed conflict? Peacefully at home with their family around them and whale song playing in the background?

There's a difference between shot or blown up and dying fairly quickly, and...

I hope they get to burn a bit before they drown

 

[Triggaaar]

I have a scenario for you Trigaaar. In North Africa in the second world war, the fledgling SAS (formerly the LRDG) used to carry out raids on German airfields to destroy as many aircraft as they could. And they were devastatingly good at it. Most times, they legged it out
of the area pronto after setting charges. On one occasion however, one deliberately sought out the German air crews in their messes first and
shot them up to shit in cold blood by surprise. Nasty business - nasty death. But those air crew would have been given new aircraft eventually
and then go and kill hundreds of Allied soldiers once more in bombing raids.

Is there a question to go with that scenario?

 

[essbee1]

Is there a question to go with that scenario?

Do you agree with shooting up German air crews in cold blood when it wasn't strictly necessary?

 

[The Clamp]

There's a difference between shot or blown up and dying fairly quickly, and...

Tell it to the women and children being burned alive in buildings in Mariupol. Tell it to the poor souls who got sulphur bombed. Russians, from Putin down to the lowliest footsoldier, fight dirty and fight mercilessly. They are trained to exploit weakness and terrorise the vulnerable. **** them.

 

[GT49er]

Do you agree with shooting up German air crews in cold blood when it wasn't strictly necessary?

Queston is, was it strictly necessary? In terms of damaging the enemy's ability to fight, it probably was. Same as Ukraine killing Russian soldiers - young conscropts, who didn't want to fight anyway - yes, their deaths are a tragedy, and not a cause for celebration.

But necessary? Sadly yes, as a result of Putin's actions.

 

[The Clamp]

Superb program on R4 tonight. General Sir. Richard Sherriff putting forward a compelling argument for building up huge allied forces on the Easter flanks of the NATO border. Reasoning that Putin is not provoked by shows of force but by shows of weakness. He probes vulnerabilities and attacks where he finds little resistance.



Sorry it’s a screen grab, don’t know how to link to here.

 

[portlock seagull]

I have a scenario for you Trigaaar. In North Africa in the second world war, the fledgling SAS (formerly the LRDG) used to carry out raids
on German airfields to destroy as many aircraft as they could. And they were devastatingly good at it. Most times, they legged it out
of the area pronto after setting charges. On one occasion however, one deliberately sought out the German air crews in their messes first and
shot them up to shit in cold blood by surprise. Nasty business - nasty death. But those air crew would have been given new aircraft eventually
and then go and kill hundreds of Allied soldiers once more in bombing raids.

…entering the hut full of unsuspecting Germans with the now legendary remark, cool as a cucumber and hundreds miles behind enemy lines…”Good evening…”, before blasting them all to death a few seconds later as they stared dumbfounded down the barrel of the stem gun.

Good old Paddy, he was like no other. Dirty business war, which is why Germany shouldn’t have started it if they weren’t prepared to meet the likes of him. Thank god he was on our side! RIP.