[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Baldseagull]

I like to question everything. I have never and will not ever condone the invasion. I just want to understand it. Propaganda and misinformation is everywhere and comes from all angles.

It is, which is why we should be a little bit careful about what we repeat, the Bulgarian Journalist's piece is not bullshit, but it asks us to make connections that may not be there and assume some nefarious purpose behind the labs. It is not unreasonable to want reassurances that nothing nefarious is going on, but the only source that says definitively that there is is the same guy telling us that Russia is not shelling civilians and hospitals, that their troops were just on exercises, that the Ukrainian Government is Nazi and terrorising it's population.

 

[Eeyore]

Hmmm.

You wanted to influence the forum, and shut down all clips that contained a Russian soldier. Today, you've repeated your mistake. The clip wasn't in breach of anything. All it contained was a video of a hungry Russian soldier devouring a roll and a hot drink generously provided by a Ukrainian woman. There was no suggestion, or evidence that he was captured, or a POW. That was the your interpretation, which you wanted everyone else to accept.

If you offered no opinion on the 'Biological Research thingy' (which you are now trying to distance yourself from), then why did you post it, and say you were 'genuinely concerned'?

It seems to me that you are now backpedaling.

This is getting circular. So all I will say is that I stand by and see no reason to alter anything I have written. You may choose reason to take issue and lay an image on me. That is your right.

 

[raymondo]

That's an interesting thought. If, as in your example, Poland and the UK decided to get involved, and Russia then declared war on us, and therefore other countries (US plus) got involved, then basically we've ended up with the 'all' option. So it's still ended up as an all or nothing scenario, just that there was a short period of time where it was 'some'. The danger with that is that it didn't seem like an all or nothing scenario, which makes it more likely that you'd turn down 'nothing' and end up with 'all'.

And that's ignoring the fact that Russia could have nuked Poland if they got involved, and warned the rest of us to stay out or we'd get the same.

Maybe the fact that we know it's all or nothing, as does Putin, means we're going to work longer and harder on a diplomatic alternative, and sanctions etc. There's no saying yet that they won't work.

That's all fair feedback from you. But with my scenario maybe Putin sees that western countries really are prepared to put troops on the ground, and missiles in the air to protect millions of Ukrainians - maybe we'd demand and police humanitarian escape routes from besieged cities, with ground troops and air closure over those routes. And yes, no doubt Putin would threaten his nuclear option again, but at least there'd be a chance Putin would back down in the case of superior conventional weapons against him.
The likelihood has increased IMO we'll have to face his nuclear threats again - if he gets a victory here, then he'll probably want a corridor to Kaliningrad soon.
Possibly a good job I'm not a negotiating diplomat, or possibly not. I just don't know.

 

[Eric the meek]

This is getting circular. So all I will say is that I stand by and see no reason to alter anything I have written.

Readers will draw their own conclusions about what you have written.

My conclusion is that you seek to shut down, deflect and derail the debate onto your own agenda.

 

[Eeyore]

Readers will draw their own conclusions about what you have written.

My conclusion is that you seek to shut down, deflect and derail the debate onto your own agenda.

What do you believe to be its content ?

 

[Baldseagull]

Sorry, just picked this up.

'The first time, you were attempting to prevent the posting of a clip being shown of a hungry Russian soldier being fed by a generous Ukrainian woman, by quoting the Geneva Convention at us'

Yes I gave the reasons too:

1) Videoing a soldier in this way is a breach of the Geneva Convention
2) Now that soldier is identified, he or his family could be vulnerable to reprisals (What are your thoughts on that ?)

Secondly, I have offered no opinion on the Biological Research thingy, except to say that it concerns me. But if I am charged to trust everything the Americans say and resist then I am a conspirator in some way.

I'm okay with that. At least it means I don't get sheared for my emotions and loyalty every now and then. It's nice to be able to question things. Much of the time I have no conclusions, but I just question. I am not a construct.

My only loyalty is to folk's peace and betterment. Hence I have no loyalty to either Russian or American political leadership.

There is no difference between a suicide bomber and a Stealth bomber. They both kill people for political reasons.

You drew some pretty strong conclusions about NATO, what Ukraine should have been allowed to do, partitioning of Ukraine and Ukraine being a divided nation based on the prevalence of predominantly Russian speaking or Ukrainian speaking people.
All of which I found to be less than open minded, and defensive of the Russian invasion.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Can't be long now before the oligarchs start to address the source of all their current pain. Which until very recently was also the source of all their current gain. Cup of tea comrade?

 

[Eric the meek]

What do you believe to be its content ?

Translated, that means 'let's talk about my agenda!'

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

 

[Eeyore]

You drew some pretty strong conclusions about NATO, what Ukraine should have been allowed to do, partitioning of Ukraine and Ukraine being a divided nation based on the prevalence of predominantly Russian speaking or Ukrainian speaking people.
All of which I found to be less than open minded, and defensive of the Russian invasion.

Yes, you are correct in saying so. Although I have been vocal against the invasion in numerous entries. I'd hope for you to withdraw that.

The rest is my view, based on my, doubtless limited, understanding of the region.

I do have reservations about NATO as a solely defensive structure, because it cannot be independent of wider ambition.

My concern is what would ultimately bring peace to the region. If Russia left Ukraine now it would be a huge relief to all, but the nation will still need to find a peaceful resolution to the internal strife- which may increase because of the destruction that has been visited upon it in the last two weeks. I just want to see a nation, partitioned or not, to have the opportunity to recover and prosper, free of outside manipulation.

And that is all I want, doubtless just like you.

 

[Baldseagull]

This is getting circular. So all I will say is that I stand by and see no reason to alter anything I have written. You may choose reason to take issue and lay an image on me. That is your right.

There is one point I would wish you to change on, a map you referenced in a previous post, it was in a video of a chap who was arguing that NATO was provoking Russia by telling Ukraine they could join. The map showed Ukraine divided along the lines of which language was most common and suggested this was evidence that it was a divided country.

I want to point out that many European countries have different languages spoken in varying degrees depending on the region, Canada has a predominantly French speaking region, China has several languages in use, India has dozens and there are 35 official languages in Russia. I hope you can see from the response of citizens to occupation in predominantly Russian speaking areas, that at least that part of the guys presentation was nonsense, and would ask you to consider the rest of his speech again.

 

[Eeyore]

Translated, that means 'let's talk about my agenda!'

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

It requires no translation. You have said I have an agenda. I have made my views known. I have asked you to summarise them from your perspective. This is an open conversation twixt you and I. It is difficult to say that someone has an agenda without expecting them to ask your perceptions of it.

Your reference to it confirming your suspicions makes this a circular conversation with yourself without addressing its content with correction or agreement. And I believe you have a false perception.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Apols if fixtures

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/60673527

Great gesture by Murray

 

[Eeyore]

There is one point I would wish you to change on, a map you referenced in a previous post, it was in a video of a chap who was arguing that NATO was provoking Russia by telling Ukraine they could join. The map showed Ukraine divided along the lines of which language was most common and suggested this was evidence that it was a divided country.

I want to point out that many European countries have different languages spoken in varying degrees depending on the region, Canada has a predominantly French speaking region, China has several languages in use, India has dozens and there are 35 official languages in Russia. I hope you can see from the response of citizens to occupation in predominantly Russian speaking areas, that at least that part of the guys presentation was nonsense, and would ask you to consider the rest of his speech again.

You make a valid point.

It is quite possible that many areas that have historically felt connected to Russia in some way, although not wanting political alignment, will have hardened their faces towards them further. It is also possible that some that did feel politicaly aligned will have also turned against them. Well, it's not just possible, it is a reality. I think I would have been the same.

The political map looks complex. I think it is only when Russia is removed that it can be found out what folk want. I think we would agree that is the priority. Democracy, which the Russian government doesn't understand, and the Americans understand on their terms.

I don't think our views are as far apart as they might seem.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You make a valid point.

It is quite possible that many areas that have historically felt connected to Russia in some way, although not wanting political alignment, will have hardened their faces towards them further. It is also possible that some that did feel politicaly aligned will have also turned against them. Well, it's not just possible, it is a reality. I think I would have been the same.

The political map looks complex. I think it is only when Russia is removed that it can be found out what folk want. I think we would agree that is the priority. Democracy, which the Russian government doesn't understand, and the Americans understand on their terms.

I don't think our views are as far apart as they might seem.

The stories of two old people, one of whom was a lieutenant colonel in the Red Army.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-eu...xdB3tH7A6YnEhsI6_lVv-GbdwLU_fxHs9roB5dqi99yZg

 

[Eeyore]

The stories of two old people, one of whom was a lieutenant colonel in the Red Army.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-eu...xdB3tH7A6YnEhsI6_lVv-GbdwLU_fxHs9roB5dqi99yZg

I think the scene that caused me most distress was a crippled old man being helped over a broken bridge. I've been moved by the plight of the frightened kids, but consoled myself with the thought that they may yet have a future, and perhaps one day this will become a distant memory.

But, for him, this is how it all ends. I thought of my own Dad, if he had been caught up in such a conflict, my Mum. They're long gone now. But just supposing. When you replace the images with your own then it becomes personal. And painful.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes, you are correct in saying so. Although I have been vocal against the invasion in numerous entries. I'd hope for you to withdraw that.

The rest is my view, based on my, doubtless limited, understanding of the region.

I have do have reservations about NATO as a solely defensive structure, because it cannot be independent of wider ambition.

My concern is what would ultimately bring peace to the region. If Russia left Ukraine now it would be a huge relief to all, but the nation will still need to find a peaceful resolution to the internal strife- which may increase because of the destruction that has been visited upon it in the last two weeks. I just want to see a nation, partitioned or not, to have the opportunity to recover and prosper, free of outside manipulation.

And that is all I want, doubtless just like you.

OK, perhaps "defensive of the Russian invasion" is too strong, but some of your statements have been similar to those Russia has made to justify it's invasion.

 

[Eeyore]

OK, perhaps "defensive of the Russian invasion" is too strong, but some of your statements have been similar to those Russia has made to justify it's invasion.

There may be political questions to be answered, but there is no justification for this invasion. None. And now we have war crimes.

 

[Eric the meek]

It requires no translation. You have said I have an agenda. I have made my views known. I have asked you to summarise them from your perspective. This is an open conversation twixt you and I. It is difficult to say that someone has an agenda without expecting them to ask your perceptions of it.

Your reference to it confirming your suspicions makes this a circular conversation with yourself without addressing its content with correction or agreement. And I believe you have a false perception.

Nice try, but you've already given your agenda for today (US biological weapons) a good go.

And it hasn't gone unnoticed that your agenda matches exactly, that of Sergei Lavrov:

'Lavrov repeats claims that US has been developing biological weapons'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60685883/page/2 (timestamp 10:40).

 

[Triggaaar]

The thing I have learnt is that both Russia and The West are now embroiled in a miss-information campaign. I do not trust Russia to tell the truth, but I do believe that if they do offer up truth about any circumstance that might portray others in a bad light, that it will likely be overlooked or dismissed in Western media.

I do not trust America to tell the truth either. We should have learnt that long ago. The Mary Poppins speech by Antony Blinken at the UN made my stomach churn. The US has made a stand against Russian oil, but is suddenly trying to develop alliances with its old foes. It's all about 'interests' while we are fed the thing that will obviously get us onside- the suffering of ordinary folk.

Well, I can feel for their suffering without believing Lavrov and his lies, and also without swallowing the BBC server after having CNN for starters.

This war isn't about goodies and baddies. It's all baddies and competing interests. The UK, US and Russia all have blood on their hands and have done so forever. Whether it's directly, by proxy, or by making a few quid with arms sales to despots.

It's fair to say that I disagree with you. Reading your posts here I get the feeling that you like to be alternative, and reasoning won't work with you.

EDIT - reading some of your more recent posts any maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's not too late for you after all

 

[Bold Seagull]

NSC is getting a bit McCarthyism for my liking...