[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[GoldstoneVintage]

This really pisses me off. Donbass isn't "full of Russians". They're Ukrainians who because of proximity to Russia, speak Russian as first langauge, but who will nearly all speak Ukrainian too. There were some ethnic Russians as there are some ethnic French in Sussex, but Donbass isn't full of Russians, or it wasn't before ethnic cleansing and forced russification.

Zelensky's first language is Russian. As a comedian, he was also very popular in Russia. It doesn't mean shit. Russia always plays the language card to claim legitimacy for their invasions. Hitler did the same with German speakers. On that basis, we could invade the Anglophone world to protect English speakers!

 

[Eric the meek]

This really pisses me off. Donbass isn't "full of Russians". They're Ukrainians who because of proximity to Russia, speak Russian as first langauge, but who will nearly all speak Ukrainian too. There were some ethnic Russians as there are some ethnic French in Sussex, but Donbass isn't full of Russians, or it wasn't before ethnic cleansing and forced russification.

Just to be clear, this is a senior diplomat/negotiator, who may be instrumental in the determination of a border between Ukraine and Russia, the invader. It is his job to be well-informed on his subject matter.

Has he not studied history? Is he unaware of what Russia, does, and before them, the Soviet Union did? Ethnic cleansing, forced migration of ethnic groups, shipping in of other ethnic groups from Russia to dilute the troublesome inhabitants of the area they have just invaded?

What are his conclusions based on exactly? What data on ethnic makeup is he using? What is this 'they would go to Putin in any negotiated settlement' based on? Any 'official' data will be from Russia, or the regional governors of the occupied areas. Does he not understand that this guarantees the data is wrong, fabricated, massaged to reinforce the invasion? Has he not stopped to wonder about the percentages of inhabitants in the occupied areas who 'voted' to stay a part of Russia, being in the high nineties?

He and his fellow negotiators and envoys need to do much, much better, otherwise they will be punishing the victim and rewarding the invader. This is not a recipe for a just and lasting peace.

 

[Mellotron]

IMO the problem is that it doesn't actually force him to show his hand because he could agree to the ceasefire and then simply ignore it, and claim that Ukraine have ignored it.

That is still showing his intentions to a degree.

 

[Triggaaar]

That is still showing his intentions to a degree.

Well we already know his intention is to take the whole of Ukraine, and then look further. The idea mooted here is that he'd have to show his hand - eg, 'No, I don't want peace'. But instead he can just pretend he does want peace, not showing his hand, but he'll then carry on fighting.

So his intentions will be as we already know they are, but he won't have admitted so.

 

[Mellotron]

Well we already know his intention is to take the whole of Ukraine, and then look further. The idea mooted here is that he'd have to show his hand - eg, 'No, I don't want peace'. But instead he can just pretend he does want peace, not showing his hand, but he'll then carry on fighting.

So his intentions will be as we already know they are, but he won't have admitted so.

His actions help show more clearly that he isn't interested in peace though, and it might be important that Trump gets this into his thick head and starts to have the optics of situation spelled out more clearly to him.

As recently as a week ago he was stating it's Ukraine that doesn't want peace. He can't say that now.

 

[peterward]

Just to be clear, this is a senior diplomat/negotiator, who may be instrumental in the determination of a border between Ukraine and Russia, the invader. It is his job to be well-informed on his subject matter.

Has he not studied history? Is he unaware of what Russia, does, and before them, the Soviet Union did? Ethnic cleansing, forced migration of ethnic groups, shipping in of other ethnic groups from Russia to dilute the troublesome inhabitants of the area they have just invaded?

What are his conclusions based on exactly? What data on ethnic makeup is he using? What is this 'they would go to Putin in any negotiated settlement' based on? Any 'official' data will be from Russia, or the regional governors of the occupied areas. Does he not understand that this guarantees the data is wrong, fabricated, massaged to reinforce the invasion? Has he not stopped to wonder about the percentages of inhabitants in the occupied areas who 'voted' to stay a part of Russia, being in the high nineties?

He and his fellow negotiators and envoys need to do much, much better, otherwise they will be punishing the victim and rewarding the invader. This is not a recipe for a just and lasting peace.

Think Phillips has it spot on again.

 

[Triggaaar]

His actions help show more clearly that he isn't interested in peace though, and it might be important that Trump gets this into his thick head and starts to have the optics of situation spelled out more clearly to him.

Putin invaded a sovereign country with the intention of taking it over completely. Only and idiot would fail to see Putin's intentions. Trump is that idiot, and if Trump didn't already know Putin's intentions, I'm not sure what this fake 'oh yeah I'm interested in peace' crap is going to do to change that. But if it makes Trump change stance, I'll be happy.

As recently as a week ago he was stating it's Ukraine that doesn't want peace. He can't say that now.

Logic would state that you're right there, but are you really that confident? Trump lies every time he speaks, so I'm not confident.

 

[Triggaaar]

Think Phillips has it spot on again.

Let's hope Europe and Ukraine stand strong and say no to such nonsense.

 

[raymondo]

This really pisses me off. Donbass isn't "full of Russians". They're Ukrainians who because of proximity to Russia, speak Russian as first langauge, but who will nearly all speak Ukrainian too. There were some ethnic Russians as there are some ethnic French in Sussex, but Donbass isn't full of Russians, or it wasn't before ethnic cleansing and forced russification.

Here's an alternate version from one of the replies:

 

[Triggaaar]

Well yeah, that's what we've been saying the whole time.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Putin invaded a sovereign country with the intention of taking it over completely. Only and idiot would fail to see Putin's intentions. Trump is that idiot, and if Trump didn't already know Putin's intentions, I'm not sure what this fake 'oh yeah I'm interested in peace' crap is going to do to change that. But if it makes Trump change stance, I'll be happy.




Logic would state that you're right there, but are you really that confident? Trump lies every time he speaks, so I'm not confident.

I think they have to try, right? And it buys Europe a little time to get its ducks in a row.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Russia gets Donbas/Eastern Ukraine
US get Greenland
China gets Taiwan

Seems to be the deal.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well we already know his intention is to take the whole of Ukraine, and then look further. The idea mooted here is that he'd have to show his hand - eg, 'No, I don't want peace'. But instead he can just pretend he does want peace, not showing his hand, but he'll then carry on fighting.

So his intentions will be as we already know they are, but he won't have admitted so.

someone might notice, with gun fire, artillary going off, contact line changes.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think they have to try, right? And it buys Europe a little time to get its ducks in a row.

I'm not sure they do. There's a reason the adults didn't try and arrange a ceasefire before. They knew it wouldn't work. Now if Trump says to Russia 'you agree to the ceasefire on the terms presented, with no amendments, or we'll implement more sanctions and arm Ukraine to the teeth', and either Putin accepts or Trump fulfils his promise, I will be pleasantly surprised and be open to changing my opinion of Trump. But right now it looks like a waste of time, and may have cost Ukraine many lives (with the removal of intelligence sharing etc).

 

[raymondo]

Just to be clear, this is a senior diplomat/negotiator, who may be instrumental in the determination of a border between Ukraine and Russia, the invader. It is his job to be well-informed on his subject matter.

Has he not studied history? Is he unaware of what Russia, does, and before them, the Soviet Union did? Ethnic cleansing, forced migration of ethnic groups, shipping in of other ethnic groups from Russia to dilute the troublesome inhabitants of the area they have just invaded?

What are his conclusions based on exactly? What data on ethnic makeup is he using? What is this 'they would go to Putin in any negotiated settlement' based on? Any 'official' data will be from Russia, or the regional governors of the occupied areas. Does he not understand that this guarantees the data is wrong, fabricated, massaged to reinforce the invasion? Has he not stopped to wonder about the percentages of inhabitants in the occupied areas who 'voted' to stay a part of Russia, being in the high nineties?

He and his fellow negotiators and envoys need to do much, much better, otherwise they will be punishing the victim and rewarding the invader. This is not a recipe for a just and lasting peace.

No, he doesn't know the history and doesn't want to think deeply because it's too hard for his sanitized little brain, and Trump wants a quick 'solution '. They are truly shit.

 

[Triggaaar]

someone might notice, with gun fire, artillary going off, contact line changes.

Eh? We'll know the ceasefire isn't working, but Russia will simply blame Ukraine.

 

[raymondo]

Apologies if already posted: this is the Russian mentality...maybe MrWaltz could take a look.

 

[SouthSaxon]

I'm not sure they do. There's a reason the adults didn't try and arrange a ceasefire before. They knew it wouldn't work. Now if Trump says to Russia 'you agree to the ceasefire on the terms presented, with no amendments, or we'll implement more sanctions and arm Ukraine to the teeth', and either Putin accepts or Trump fulfils his promise, I will be pleasantly surprised and be open to changing my opinion of Trump. But right now it looks like a waste of time, and may have cost Ukraine many lives (with the removal of intelligence sharing etc).

I’m sorry but we can’t pin removal of aid and intelligence on the ceasefire plan, that was a direct result of the Oval Office blow up and Trump trying to force Zelenskyy to capitulate.

This current plan was part of Europe’s response to that - I’d argue it’s directly led to the restoration of that aid.

 

[raymondo]

Think Phillips has it spot on again.

Well put, they are conditioning the public thought space. Even the interviewer didn't challenge Waltz, he basically fed him the answers.

 

[raymondo]

His actions help show more clearly that he isn't interested in peace though, and it might be important that Trump gets this into his thick head and starts to have the optics of situation spelled out more clearly to him.

As recently as a week ago he was stating it's Ukraine that doesn't want peace. He can't say that now.

I still think Trump won't take Ukraine's side in this and arm them heavily - I think he'll keep talking about more concessions being needed from Ukraine to stop (it won't of course) the Russians.
It's a shit show. Trump's next moves will show his hand to some extent.