[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Triggaaar]

Yeah, I don’t want to derail this, let’s leave wider discussion of UK politics in the relevant thread. However, all of Reform and more than half of the current Conservative Party are in thrall to this Trump/Musk movement. That’s where the threat is to Ukraine.

Whatever one thinks of Labour’s domestic policies, their support for Zelenskyy has been unwavering, and reconfirmed even after Trump’s disgraceful statements. Neither Labour nor Lib Dem pose a threat to UK support for Ukraine.

Kemi Badenoch has condemned Trump's comments, highlighted that Zelenskyy is the democratically elected leader of Ukraine, and said the Conservatives stand with Ukraine.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

From Substack. This guy just speaks so much sense:

 

[chickens]

Kemi Badenoch has condemned Trump's comments, highlighted that Zelenskyy is the democratically elected leader of Ukraine, and said the Conservatives stand with Ukraine.

That’s remarkably easy to do in opposition. Should they reach power, they won’t do anything as crass as removing support, they’ll give a reason (possibly to protect the British taxpayer) why they are introducing certain conditions that must be met before further aid can be provided.

Slowly over time, the media narrative will shift to “faults on both sides” - others have already posted further up this thread GB News peeps acting as Putin apologists. It’s already happening.

There’s too much “US con crazy” in the Conservative Party, which for decades uneasily held a wide range of differing views. Johnson purged the party of moderates, and has filled the shortfall with the political equivalent of @cunning fergus.

It’s not pretty, they are not the party they were.

 

[Triggaaar]

That’s remarkably easy to do in opposition. Should they reach power, they won’t do anything as crass as removing support, they’ll give a reason (possibly to protect the British taxpayer) why they are introducing certain conditions that must be met before further aid can be provided.

The next general election isn't for 4 years, so let's stick to what we know. The UK government and opposition are supporting Ukraine.

Slowly over time, the media narrative will shift to “faults on both sides” - others have already posted further up this thread GB News peeps acting as Putin apologists. It’s already happening.

That channel should be closed.

 

[Hamilton]

Forget stats and deal with realities.

Russia has been fully engaged in a war for 3 years against an opponent sponsored by western money and military material.

It’s manpower casualties exceed the entire size of the British armed services 2 - 3 times over, and the country and military forces, like it or not, doesn’t appear to be on the brink.

Compared to the West and it’s potential to commit to a struggle of that nature do you honestly believe this country would continue to hold itself together with (say) a 1000pw casualty rate?

We know the answer, this country wouldn’t even have the capacity to fly a 1000 casualties a week back to dear old Blighty from Ukraine if it was engaged against Russia.

So you are dropping your 11% stat then. Good. We can move on.

To your ‘reality’. Putin’s losses are having an affect on Russian morale and ability to maintain the war at this level. If you read that report from Russia you’ll see that resistance to mobilization is strong.

 

[armchairclubber]

Yeah, I don’t want to derail this, let’s leave wider discussion of UK politics in the relevant thread. However, all of Reform and more than half of the current Conservative Party are in thrall to this Trump/Musk movement. That’s where the threat is to Ukraine.

Whatever one thinks of Labour’s domestic policies, their support for Zelenskyy has been unwavering, and reconfirmed even after Trump’s disgraceful statements. Neither Labour nor Lib Dem pose a threat to UK support for Ukraine.

Don't they say that 'a week is a long time in politics'?
Particularly when Government Heads of various nations are due to visit Trump in the US next week.
(and not together so far as I'm aware, so opportunity for him to divide/play his negotiating games)

We don't know exactly what will be on the table, though Ukraine will certainly dominate and take full focus.
And that I don't agree with for a start. They'll be giving him pretty much everything he wants, I fear.

Happy to be proven wrong.

 

[SouthSaxon]

It’s not 1939, the people that lived here then are dead, we are evidently not the country today we were then.

In 1939 the adult population was overwhelmingly children from parents that lived and likely served in WW1. That conflict was a horror show casualty wise and it is remarkable the the children of the WW1 generation was willing to go through the experience of their parents.

Todays likely war serving generation are the great great grandchildren of the WW2 generation and let’s be honest they aren’t cut from the same cloth.

Life is different today, these children travel, have luxuries and lives unthinkable a mere 70 years ago. If Putin is a maniacal as Hitler was in 1939 we will need to find another way to stop him that think we can put 3m strong army together with the current 18-27yr old cohort……….imo obvs.

I don’t know, you spent most of this post explaining how things are different to 1939, then end by saying “but if this is like 1939”…

First, nobody, here or anywhere else, as far as I can find, is suggesting Britain needs an army with 3m personnel or troops. They are just suggesting we need more, which is so plainly obvious that even the Trump administration is saying it.

Second, (and please, just stop with this gen-z nonsense), the armed forces aren’t limited to people under 27. Ukraine only reduced its draft age to 25 (from 27!!!), in April last year.

 

[Triggaaar]

Forget stats and deal with realities.

Russia has been fully engaged in a war for 3 years against an opponent sponsored by western money and military material.

It’s manpower casualties exceed the entire size of the British armed services 2 - 3 times over, and the country and military forces, like it or not, doesn’t appear to be on the brink.

Which country is on the brink? Given that you're a Russian propagandist, I assume you mean Ukraine. Can you provide any evidence that they're on the brink?

Compared to the West and it’s potential to commit to a struggle of that nature do you honestly believe this country would continue to hold itself together with (say) a 1000pw casualty rate?

We know the answer, this country wouldn’t even have the capacity to fly a 1000 casualties a week back to dear old Blighty from Ukraine if it was engaged against Russia.

Russia are taking 1,500 casualties a month. Ukraine are taking about 200 per month. If the UK were a small part of a European force, along with Ukraine, how do you figure that the UK would be taking over 4,000 casualties a month?

You're just talking complete nonsense in support of Russia.

 

[Triggaaar]

The irrefutable truth is that the Russian army is a mess, so much of a mess that it has had to ship in troops and kit from North Korea.
The proof is before you, three years into an operation that started on a Thursday and should have been put to bed on the Sunday at the very latest.

The fact that Ukraine has been supported by the west also tells you that Russia is pretty much toothless when it comes to the rest of Europe. The Russian army is stuck in the 1970’s both in kit but also tactics. Piss up and brewery spring to mind.

If you’re right

He is right.

then the Ukrainians should be rolling them back

No they shouldn't be rolling them back. Defending is a lot easier than attacking, which is why Russia are losing so many men, trying to attack well defended Ukraine positions. So Ukraine can continue to defend well, but wouldn't be able to attack so well.

as oppose to having surrendered large parts of its territory.

Ukraine lost large parts of its territory when the war started 3 years ago. Ukraine then pushed Russia back (before the Russians had dug in and got decent defensive positions). And the front line hasn't moved so much since then.

That is the proof I’m merely pointing to today, which on that basis means the Russians are not as toothless or in as much of a mess as you say.

There is nothing wrong with optimism or positivity however when it comes to a full scale war with Russia we need hard headed realism.

I agree, but you keep posting falsehoods. Russia are not making headway. Ukraine aren't either, but they don't have to.

 

[happypig]

Second, (and please, just stop with this gen-z nonsense), the armed forces aren’t limited to people under 27. Ukraine only reduced its draft age to 25 (from 27!!!), in April last year.

A bloke I worked with took early retirement same time I did and joined the RAF. He was 54.

 

[Triggaaar]

Make a deal then renege on it

Fixed

We have no idea what the deal is supposed to contain do we? Resources for what exactly? Resources for losing everything and no security - and if we don't agree, then what exactly?

Now a deal of kicking Russia completely out, and then joining NATO, that's worth paying a bit for, but I'd still not pay more than it cost the allies.

 

[armchairclubber]

Thanks for posting @raymondo this gives a better idea of what the UK might be about to play it's part in agreement on.

The deep feelings of Ukrainians also need to be taken into account, they may well see the UK or even peace keepers as traitors.

Opinion of a former resident of my wifes home city, in the Guardian is almost exactly the words my wife would herself express.

Yulia*, 43, was as a postal worker in Mariupol until the Russian invasion. “Now,” she said, “I have no housing, no job, I’m a refugee.”

“In short, Trump is [seemingly] proposing to give Putin my home town. Where Putin’s troops killed [thousands of] civilians. They almost killed me and my child. Trump is proposing that the Russians get away with this monstrous crime, that the Russians get their illegal reward for killing the civilians of Mariupol.

“I will never agree to Russian murderers taking my city. Six generations of my ancestors are buried in Mariupol. My son was born in Mariupol. Russians stole our home, stole all our things, and now Trump [may want to] formalise this crime.”

‘Like a cruel auction’: what Ukrainians think of Trump’s peace talks with Putin

Ukrainians inside the country and abroad express their hopelessness, anger and defiance at negotiations between Washington and Moscow

www.theguardian.com

 

[raymondo]

F*** me! Do we really need any more evidence that Trump is Putin's creature?!
View attachment 197096

Incredible stuff

 

[peterward]

The replies say everything I want to say and don't have the energy for...

That is beyond sick. If you don't let us rape your natural resource, we're cutting off the starlink, you pay for (and lest we forget, Ukraine buys its terminals and subscriptions - they're not donated).

Even more, I want Zelenskyy to call their bluff, and the EU to be strident.

If you cut off Starlink that helps Russia destabilise Ukraine and Europe, we will ban both X and Tesla in Europe.

That will make Musk think twice.

And now every user of US technologies is going to be seriously questioning that decision.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Phillips P. OBrien on Substack

Hello All, Just put out this piece about the false hopes people are placing in the idea of a "transactional" foreign policy. Basing your security not on strong alliances but on bilateral deal-making and power wielding is normally a failure. In the hands of incompetents like those in the Trump...

substack.com

 

[Eric the meek]

Stand firm Ukraine. You are in the right.

 

[fly high]

Stand firm Ukraine. You are in the right.

FFS how low can these scumbags get? Unbelievable.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Trump is a total and utter wanker he don’t give a shit about Ukraine or Russia he just wants the minerals for his mate Musk !!! How the f*** the Americans voted this see u next Tuesday in not once but twice !!!! And it will get worse

 

[fly high]

Trump is a total and utter wanker he don’t give a shit about Ukraine or Russia he just wants the minerals for his mate Musk !!! How the f*** the Americans voted this see u next Tuesday in not once but twice !!!! And it will get worse

There are prize twats on this board who still think he's wonderful !!! No hope.

 

[raymondo]

That is beyond sick. If you don't let us rape your natural resource, we're cutting off the starlink, you pay for (and lest we forget, Ukraine buys its terminals and subscriptions - they're not donated).

Even more, I want Zelenskyy to call their bluff, and the EU to be strident.

If you cut off Starlink that helps Russia destabilise Ukraine and Europe, we will bam both X and Tesla in Europe.

That will make Musk think twice.

And now every user of US technologies is going to be seriously questioning that decision.

I agree, time for Ukraine and Europe to play hardball with these guys. Show them they're not as needed as they think.