[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[portlock seagull]

Yep. Most people want to enjoy their life as best they can, and maybe most Brits (and others) still feel far enough away from losing that freedom (ie war) not to want to pay more taxes.
But, when it's clear that freedom is 100,% under threat, then I believe attitudes would change.
It's the human way.

You'd hope so, but I really believe a majority of our population today wouldn't realise or care sufficiently until too late. The UK is only a couple of days drive across the continent by Panzer after all But as previously mentioned, obtaining a common sense of unity and willingness to accept seismic change to put us on a war footing is where I have my doubts. Because of course, time is never in abundance when the games up and armies take time to build, arm and train etc. Especially with little to no manufacturing or resources at hand.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Trump wants his Nobel peace prize...the self centred scum

Obama has one, so yeah.

 

[Triggaaar]

I guess the difference is Russia can, still does and always has to a degree forced its citizens to fight for the sacred Motherland. It's also a very controlled state, easier to make use of propaganda etc. Arguably less educated too. But also, historically, they show a tolerance to adversity and hardship that's beyond anything the average Westerner can put up with.

I agree with all that, and if Russia had the same resources and technical ability as Europe, their control/propaganda/tolerance of hardship could prove decisive, but they're dwarfed by Europe's economy and military capabilities.

They can't even beat Ukraine!

If Europe increases their spending on defence, and provides more to Ukraine, Russia will continue to take unsustainable losses (they're no longer driving tanks into Ukraine, they're driving motorbikes and vans) while their economy fails. This is a war of attrition, and Russia is losing it. Having to ask North Koreans to join in is hardly a show of strength.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

I think you may have mis-understood? Cunning Fergus was merely pointing out a recent survey of Gen Z's don't think this country is worth fighting for. That's not anything to do with racism, is it? Or at least not exclusively? Was similarly reported a while ago in couple of broadsheet papers, though I didn't read in detail just gave a cursory 'that figures' sigh at the headline!

As a previous poster suggested, perhaps start a separate thread titled: 'Are Brits ready to fight'? Then that discussion can be had by all who wish without derailing this thread which is narrowly focused on the war in Ukraine.

 

[cunning fergus]

Why do you keep bringing racism into this thread? It's got nothing to do with whether anyone would fight to defend their country.




Why are you calling us armchair generals? Who are you?



We're barely involved in this conflict. Are you suggesting that we stop supplying arms to Ukraine? That would represent a much greater long term risk, as it would help Russia win, at which point they'd start eyeing up the next country to invade, and then the next. I'm guessing that's what you want.



All democracies would have a problem with deporting people, but that says nothing of their ability to defend themselves against a foreign power.

I’m not, I’m referencing a survey of 18-27 year olds, the link headlines on a view of those surveyed that they think the U.K. is racist. I suspect you know that now.

The survey indicates only 11% of that cohort are willing to fight for the U.K. That is a catastrophic position for a country that is seeking to be a major military player on the global stage.

It means that even if the Government could increase budgets and industrial capacity, the generation that would be expected to do the fighting won’t.

It’s quite straightforward logic and I’m struggling to understand how others don’t understand the point. Maybe it’s denial on the reality of the position, however it doesn’t change the FACTS.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I think you may have mis-understood? Cunning Fergus was merely pointing out a recent survey of Gen Z's don't think this country is worth fighting for. That's not anything to do with racism, is it? Or at least not exclusively? Was similarly reported a while ago in couple of broadsheet papers, though I didn't read in detail just gave a cursory 'that figures' sigh at the headline!

The OP was being his normal twatish self.

FWIW, I don’t think there has been generation more disenchanted with their elders then gen Z. TBH, I’M 60 and I’m pissed off with boomers and gen X.

 

[cunning fergus]

Are you a Brighton fan? You only seems to comment on Political threads - just don't seem to interested in the football.

Yep, like you I was at Newcastle in 79, still have programme. Not as good as Hereford though imo.

 

[portlock seagull]

The OP was being his normal twatish self.

FWIW, I don’t think there has been generation more disenchanted with their elders then gen Z. TBH, I’M 60 and I’m pissed off with boomers and gen X.

I completely accept younger generations disliking us. It’s not my fault houses are more expensive for example, and climate change is a heck of an inheritance. I do however think younger generations, in our shoes, would have done no different. Everyone’s to an extent a victim of their time.

 

[Triggaaar]

I’m not, I’m referencing a survey of 18-27 year olds, the link headlines on a view of those surveyed that they think the U.K. is racist.

Ok. It just seemed weird that links you were posting had something about racist Brits in the title.

The survey indicates only 11% of that cohort are willing to fight for the U.K. That is a catastrophic position for a country that is seeking to be a major military player on the global stage.

Firstly, the UK isn't seeking to be a major military player on the global stage. Where have you got that from?

Secondly, I can't see what that survey has to do with anything. We have soldiers and would fight alongside our allies. We're not getting invaded, but if we did, plenty of people would fight.

It means that even if the Government could increase budgets and industrial capacity, the generation that would be expected to do the fighting won’t.

No it doesn't.

It’s quite straightforward logic and I’m struggling to understand how others don’t understand the point. Maybe it’s denial on the reality of the position, however it doesn’t change the FACTS.

It's not a fact that people won't fight.

 

[portlock seagull]

As a previous poster suggested, perhaps start a separate thread titled: 'Are Brits ready to fight'? Then that discussion can be had by all who wish without derailing this thread which is narrowly focused on the war in Ukraine.

The two are related, and I’ve not seen any rules for this thread. Like everything else on NSC, it meanders off course perhaps sometimes before returning to the main points.

 

[maffew]

What sort of ‘US ownership’ is being proposed here? I suspect it’s the Trump family & friends type.

Musk will have his eye on the lithium, that conversations probably already been had

Trump basically looking to pillage/loot countries under siege

 

[cunning fergus]

That's true, but it's true for Russia as well. A quick google tells me we had about 6 million troops in WW1, and down to 3.5m for WW2 (no idea how inaccurate that quick look is). And google tells me Russia had 34 million soldiers in WW2.

We don't need those kind of numbers now. We have a lot of European allies, while Russia (who don't exactly have willing conscripts queuing up to join) can't even beat Ukraine.

Russia has been in a war for 3 years, and if accounts are true suffered material loses in hardware and soldiers. They have the will to fight, which is why the war continues which is credit to the Ukrainians.

I doubt this country has the same will to get into a 3 month conflict with similar casualty rates. How long do you think we would sit out say a 1000pw casualty rate?

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Russia has been in a war for 3 years, and if accounts are true suffered material loses in hardware and soldiers. They have the will to fight, which is why the war continues which is credit to the Ukrainians.

I doubt this country has the same will to get into a 3 month conflict with similar casualty rates. How long do you think we would sit out say a 1000pw casualty rate?

Europe has a hell of a lot hardware that would come into play if we and our allies put feet on the ground in Ukraine. Russia would be f***ed. Putin knows this and is petrified that we actually get our shit together.

 

[Eric the meek]

Russia has been in a war for 3 years, and if accounts are true suffered material loses in hardware and soldiers. They have the will to fight, which is why the war continues which is credit to the Ukrainians.

I doubt this country has the same will to get into a 3 month conflict with similar casualty rates. How long do you think we would sit out say a 1000pw casualty rate?

Why haven't you linked that Gen Z article again? We haven't seen enough of it yet.

 

[cunning fergus]

Ok. It just seemed weird that links you were posting had something about racist Brits in the title.




Firstly, the UK isn't seeking to be a major military player on the global stage. Where have you got that from?

Secondly, I can't see what that survey has to do with anything. We have soldiers and would fight alongside our allies. We're not getting invaded, but if we did, plenty of people would fight.





No it doesn't.




It's not a fact that people won't fight.

Starmer is ready to put British troops in Ukraine.

Starmer says he is ready to put UK troops in Ukraine to face down Putin

In a dramatic escalation of rhetoric ahead of an urgent meeting of European leaders in Paris on Monday, the prime minister confirmed he is prepared to put a peacekeeping force into Ukraine if there is a deal to end the war with Russia

search.app

You will recall we are a country that has less than 20,000 front line infantry.

 

[Triggaaar]

Russia has been in a war for 3 years, and if accounts are true suffered material loses in hardware and soldiers. They have the will to fight, which is why the war continues which is credit to the Ukrainians.

They don't all have the will to fight, which is why they've brought in soldiers from North Korea, and others are committing suicide on the battlefield. Those that are signing up are doing so out of desperation, because they've got so little else to live for.

I doubt this country has the same will to get into a 3 month conflict with similar casualty rates. How long do you think we would sit out say a 1000pw casualty rate?

If we were invading another country, as Russia has - well, I need to stop there, because we wouldn't. If, however, we were invaded (like Ukraine), we wouldn't give up even if we lost millions.

But our military is run far better than Russia's, so we wouldn't lose soldiers at the alarming rate they are. They're losing them that fast because they march them across open fields with no protection, because they have no regard for their soldiers lives.

But if we support Ukraine as we should, we won't have to fight a war. The only reason we'd have to fight is if we allowed Ukraine to lose.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Starmer is ready to put British troops in Ukraine.

Starmer says he is ready to put UK troops in Ukraine to face down Putin

In a dramatic escalation of rhetoric ahead of an urgent meeting of European leaders in Paris on Monday, the prime minister confirmed he is prepared to put a peacekeeping force into Ukraine if there is a deal to end the war with Russia

search.app

You will recall we are a country that has less than 20,000 front line infantry.

which isn’t how any you’d put on the ground.
technology has been the winner so far and will continue to do so.

 

[Triggaaar]

Starmer is ready to put British troops in Ukraine.

He's talking about putting troops on the ground, alongside other countries, after the war is over. That's not trying to be a major military power on the global stage.

You will recall we are a country that has less than 20,000 front line infantry.

Your point?

 

[BrightonCottager]

Surely, all we have to do is send in the SAS Rogue Heroes, blasting hot lead and Sham 69? Job done.

 

[Eric the meek]

i've noticed that our intel has been rather impressive throughout this war.

On a recent video, Chuck Pfarrar noted that British intelligence said that 95% of all Russian forces were in Ukraine. Even with that high percentage (plus a few thousand North Koreans), they still have only taken 20% of Ukrainian territory, and still cannot take back Kursk, after six months.

There's no complacency here, but equally, let's not over estimate the enemy.