[Football] Right then. After that demonstration... VAR? Yes or No?

[Sussex Nomad]

It was no different to cheering post-potential goal and then realising the flag was up for off-side. Personally I thought it seemed quite quick, but I appreciate others disagree. It was the right decision too, and that should trump everything else in my opinion. I also liked that they showed the decision on the big screen.

It can definitely be refined though and putting microphones on the refs should be standard, even at this early stage. In that regard, you'd cut out the confusion, you'd cut out the celebrations until it's confirmed and there'd be less pointless debate over decisions. I actually thought the ref was excellent on Saturday too.

It was absolutely the right decision if that is what you want from your football. Personally I'd rather they got it wrong and moan about it afterwards. I've said it time and again, we have lived with these decisions for over 150 years and got on with it. It wasn't a quick decision, it took two minutes AFTER the celebrations. What is the point? I don't get it at all. And 1 min was added to extra time, human error, we lived with it.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

My only question would be is; if Burn passed to another player, who then played it to Trossard to score. How far back do they go?

It wouldn't have made a difference as it was still the same phase of play. The issue actually came because no one got a flick on from the original free-kick meaning that he was the first to touch the ball.

If, however, someone else had got to the ball first and then crossed to Burn who'd passed to Trossard, he wouldn't have been offside from the original free-kick.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

This is the key flaw at the moment. But I do think putting microphones on referees would stop that as it's the lack of clarity that's the killer. Plus we'll all adapt, sooner or later, to waiting that fraction of a second.

It was nothing like a fraction of a second. Our players had celebrated and then all the players were ready to start again from the centre spot. Some here have said around 2 minutes, I have no idea of the exact time but it must have approached that easily. That is unacceptable.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It was absolutely the right decision if that is what you want from your football. Personally I'd rather they got it wrong and moan about it afterwards. I've said it time and again, we have lived with these decisions for over 150 years and got on with it. It wasn't a quick decision, it took two minutes AFTER the celebrations. What is the point? I don't get it at all. And 1 min was added to extra time, human error, we lived with it.

I guess the question is how many wrong decisions are you willing to put up with and moan about at the end of the game before too many wrong decisions are made?

On Saturday I'd been too busy celebrating for most of that two minutes to realise the length of time it took. When I then realised there was an issue, it actually added to the tension for me, which I rather liked. Add that to the fact that the correct decision was made (even though it was against us) and shown live, just made the process fairly harmless for me. I'd much prefer that to being furious all game or all weekend about a decision that was clearly wrong that had cost our team, such as the Cardiff away trip last season.

To each their own though. Change doesn't come without some hiccups.

 

[Stuart Munday]

So what would happen if Dunk plays the ball up to March and the ball accidentally hits his arm, nothing given as accidental. Normally you would expect him to run down the wing and get a cross in, but if he does this and we score the goal will be disallowed, does he do it anyway or stop and kick it back to the keeper or kick it into touch.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I guess the question is how many wrong decisions are you willing to put up with and moan about at the end of the game before too many wrong decisions are made?

On Saturday I'd been too busy celebrating for most of that two minutes to realise the length of time it took. When I then realised there was an issue, it actually added to the tension for me, which I rather liked. Add that to the fact that the correct decision was made (even though it was against us) and shown live, just made the process fairly harmless for me. I'd much prefer that to being furious all game or all weekend about a decision that was clearly wrong that had cost our team, such as the Cardiff away trip last season.

To each their own though. Change doesn't come without some hiccups.

We've put up with wrong decisions for longer than we have been born. We've got over it, we remember the bad ones but it becomes part of folklore. We accept that some we win and some we lose. Every now and again, Frank Lampard, Maradona, even Geoff Hurst for the Krauts are big issues but we get on with it. We don't need VAR to tell us how our game is run. We can work it out for ourselves. We even cal Mike Dean by the name he has here because of a decision badly made. THIS IS PART OF FOLKLORE!! We don't need VAR to tell us, we don't need to sit on our arses for two minutes because it goes to VAR. That is NOT football.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It was nothing like a fraction of a second. Our players had celebrated and then all the players were ready to start again from the centre spot. Some here have said around 2 minutes, I have no idea of the exact time but it must have approached that easily. That is unacceptable.

Right, this time it wasn't. It'll become more efficient though. I appreciate how it may annoy people if the game had been restarted, but you've not actually lost any time as, I'm guessing, you were celebrating throughout much of that?

I guess the issue comes if people stop celebrating until it's confirmed as that two minutes will then just be idle time. But that didn't happen Saturday, even for our legitimate goal; not around me at least!

Plus, imagine the emotional positive where the opposition have a goal disallowed in the final moment that would've cost us the game i.e. Cardiff last season away. That feeling from a correct decision will trump the negatives you're outlining for me.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

We've put up with wrong decisions for longer than we have been born. We've got over it, we remember the bad ones but it becomes part of folklore. We accept that some we win and some we lose. Every now and again, Frank Lampard, Maradona, even Geoff Hurst for the Krauts are big issues but we get on with it. We don't need VAR to tell us how our game is run. We can work it out for ourselves. We even cal Mike Dean by the name he has here because of a decision badly made. THIS IS PART OF FOLKLORE!! We don't need VAR to tell us, we don't need to sit on our arses for two minutes because it goes to VAR. That is NOT football.

Things evolve. Goalkicks have had to leave the area throughout my lifetime. That's changed this season. In fact a number of things have. Evolution comes with some growing pains. In 10 years time I'd imagine people will look back at threads like this and think "how did those old people watch football without technology?!".

 

[Pavilionaire]

It was nothing like a fraction of a second. Our players had celebrated and then all the players were ready to start again from the centre spot. Some here have said around 2 minutes, I have no idea of the exact time but it must have approached that easily. That is unacceptable.

The reason that is acceptable is because of the momentum swing in the game. Yes, Burn was offside but that passage of play results in the West Ham fans being given a lift whereas Brighton are deflated. On a different day that could lead to West Ham taking the lead.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Things evolve. Goalkicks have had to leave the area throughout my lifetime. That's changed this season. In fact a number of things have. Evolution comes with some growing pains. In 10 years time I'd imagine people will look back at threads like this and think "how did those old people watch football without technology?!".

There is no technology in goal kicks, in fact it was always ridiculous in my eyes. Stopping a fast running game with all its emotions, spontaneity, adrenaline, is a game killer.

 

[Albumen]

The new goal kick rule just encourages more time wasting with 'oh I've changed my mind now I can wait for you to go upfield' option for the sodding keeper. Why bring it in? What value does it add? Who the **** looked at football's problems and controversies and thought "We need to change goal kicks"??

Back to thread. VAR is football's cancer. Done.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The reason that is acceptable is because of the momentum swing in the game. Yes, Burn was offside but that passage of play results in the West Ham fans being given a lift whereas Brighton are deflated. On a different day that could lead to West Ham taking the lead.

I agree. I made a similar point earlier, there was no doubt var handed the impetus to west ham unjustifiably as we were playing them off the park at that point. Had the lino flagged initially, there would have been disappointment but not the kind that happens 2 minutes after you think you have taken the lead.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I'm sure all my issues are covered, but best to detail my rant in a series of bullet points.

- I hate it. HATE HATE HATE IT.
- The sheer unbridled JOY of a goal has had an element taken away from it. Even on Trossard's legit goal, I only HALF celebrated for fear of them finding SOMETHING wrong with it. The removal of that utter joy is an absolute crime against the sport. Awful.
- It is NOT the same as reviewing a try or a wicket or a point in tennis. Yes, these are important, but they are in NO WAY as VITAL is a goal is in football. Plenty of games are won 1-0 with last minute winners, the fact that the fans can't go MENTAL for fear of it being over-ruled is mad. Yes, it was funny, but see Man City's last minute winner ruled out for an example of how rubbish this is. Yes, it's 'drama' but it's taking away from every goal.
- The delay in finding out a goal is even being 'properly' reviewed is awful and it purely communicated. I have no issue with the goal being ruled out. Burn was offside. The delay is shocking. Why can't this be a review system where, within 5 seconds of a goal being scored, the manager/captain can ask for a review if they have a doubt? Then we know very early that there could possibly be a disallowed goal. The fact they are 'reviewing' every goal means constant worry that it won't stand.
- The Linespeople have become redundant. They have now been instructed to NOT flag for offside's until the phase of play is complete or whatever it is. It's ridiculous. The amount of standard offsides I've seen where play continues and continues and eventually the flag goes up. If I was a lino I wouldn't DARE put my flag up now for fear of being THE lino who stopped play when someone was actually onside.
- Who EXACTLY is it who are demanding the 'perfect' game where no mistakes are made. This game has grown and grown and is a religion in this country before this nonsense came in.
- Do NOT use goal line tech in the same conversation as VAR. Goal line tech is an instant decision and is a FACT. It is brilliant.


Done.

 

[Easy 10]

I agree. I made a similar point earlier, there was no doubt var handed the impetus to west ham unjustifiably as we were playing them off the park at that point. Had the lino flagged initially, there would have been disappointment but not the kind that happens 2 minutes after you think you have taken the lead.

Exactly, couldn't agree more. But unfortunately this will become only more commonplace, because linesmen are now told if they're not sure, to keep their flag down and let VAR sort it out. Its abysmal.

I feel I got "suckered" into celebrating a goal. It was totally unacceptable to reveal 2 minutes after it had been scored that it was THEN being reviewed. Then it gives an almighty psychological boost to the opposition when its chalked off so long after the event, almost like when a side misses a penalty. Its a huge reprieve.

Anyone who is actually OK with how that played out on Saturday needs to take a step back and analyse why it is they go to football. Part of Burns LEG was offside ffs, yet so much still had to happen before Trossard buried that volley. The margins for offside have become absolutely ludicrous.

Clear and obvious my left bollock. I fvcking KNEW VAR would ruin football.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I'm sure all my issues are covered, but best to detail my rant in a series of bullet points.

- I hate it. HATE HATE HATE IT.
- The sheer unbridled JOY of a goal has had an element taken away from it. Even on Trossard's legit goal, I only HALF celebrated for fear of them finding SOMETHING wrong with it. The removal of that utter joy is an absolute crime against the sport. Awful.
- It is NOT the same as reviewing a try or a wicket or a point in tennis. Yes, these are important, but they are in NO WAY as VITAL is a goal is in football. Plenty of games are won 1-0 with last minute winners, the fact that the fans can't go MENTAL for fear of it being over-ruled is mad. Yes, it was funny, but see Man City's last minute winner ruled out for an example of how rubbish this is. Yes, it's 'drama' but it's taking away from every goal.
- The delay in finding out a goal is even being 'properly' reviewed is awful and it purely communicated. I have no issue with the goal being ruled out. Burn was offside. The delay is shocking. Why can't this be a review system where, within 5 seconds of a goal being scored, the manager/captain can ask for a review if they have a doubt? Then we know very early that there could possibly be a disallowed goal. The fact they are 'reviewing' every goal means constant worry that it won't stand.
- The Linespeople have become redundant. They have now been instructed to NOT flag for offside's until the phase of play is complete or whatever it is. It's ridiculous. The amount of standard offsides I've seen where play continues and continues and eventually the flag goes up. If I was a lino I wouldn't DARE put my flag up now for fear of being THE lino who stopped play when someone was actually onside.
- Who EXACTLY is it who are demanding the 'perfect' game where no mistakes are made. This game has grown and grown and is a religion in this country before this nonsense came in.
- Do NOT use goal line tech in the same conversation as VAR. Goal line tech is an instant decision and is a FACT. It is brilliant.


Done.

100% mate.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Exactly, couldn't agree more. But unfortunately this will become only more commonplace, because linesmen are now told if they're not sure, to keep their flag down and let VAR sort it out. Its abysmal.

I feel I got "suckered" into celebrating a goal. It was totally unacceptable to reveal 2 minutes after it had been scored that it was THEN being reviewed. Then it gives an almighty psychological boost to the opposition when its chalked off so long after the event, almost like when a side misses a penalty. Its a huge reprieve.

Anyone who is actually OK with how that played out on Saturday needs to take a step back and analyse why it is they go to football. Part of Burns LEG was offside ffs, yet so much still had to happen before Trossard buried that volley. The margins for offside have become absolutely ludicrous.

Clear and obvious my left bollock. I fvcking KNEW VAR would ruin football.

And 100% here too.

 

[Giraffe]

I'm sure all my issues are covered, but best to detail my rant in a series of bullet points.

- I hate it. HATE HATE HATE IT.
- The sheer unbridled JOY of a goal has had an element taken away from it. Even on Trossard's legit goal, I only HALF celebrated for fear of them finding SOMETHING wrong with it. The removal of that utter joy is an absolute crime against the sport. Awful.
- It is NOT the same as reviewing a try or a wicket or a point in tennis. Yes, these are important, but they are in NO WAY as VITAL is a goal is in football. Plenty of games are won 1-0 with last minute winners, the fact that the fans can't go MENTAL for fear of it being over-ruled is mad. Yes, it was funny, but see Man City's last minute winner ruled out for an example of how rubbish this is. Yes, it's 'drama' but it's taking away from every goal.
- The delay in finding out a goal is even being 'properly' reviewed is awful and it purely communicated. I have no issue with the goal being ruled out. Burn was offside. The delay is shocking. Why can't this be a review system where, within 5 seconds of a goal being scored, the manager/captain can ask for a review if they have a doubt? Then we know very early that there could possibly be a disallowed goal. The fact they are 'reviewing' every goal means constant worry that it won't stand.
- The Linespeople have become redundant. They have now been instructed to NOT flag for offside's until the phase of play is complete or whatever it is. It's ridiculous. The amount of standard offsides I've seen where play continues and continues and eventually the flag goes up. If I was a lino I wouldn't DARE put my flag up now for fear of being THE lino who stopped play when someone was actually onside.
- Who EXACTLY is it who are demanding the 'perfect' game where no mistakes are made. This game has grown and grown and is a religion in this country before this nonsense came in.
- Do NOT use goal line tech in the same conversation as VAR. Goal line tech is an instant decision and is a FACT. It is brilliant.


Done.

Completely spot on. Great post.

 

[Lurker]

I haven't read every post, the thread is way too long for that, but I've dipped in and out at various points and the argument on here would seem to boil down to spontaneity versus correctness.
Sussex Nomad appears to be one of the main cheerleaders for spontaneity over correctness, but his arguments are failing to persuade me, and I'm very much in the correctness camp.

I originally had enormous apathy towards VAR, but that changed big time after the away game at Cardiff last year.
I felt bitter for weeks and weeks after that game about the total injustice we suffered, and no amount of spontaneity before or after would have compensated for those feelings.

Correctness HAS to be the winner.

It's sheer nonsense to suggest that any true football fan would happily accept their team losing points through incorrect decisions ...... just so long as they get the chance to jump up and down every now and then and wave their arms around like a Honey Monster in a bee farm.

As a matter of fact I felt able to leap out of my seat and wave my arms around for BOTH of Trossard's goals on Saturday, as did all of the people within my immediate eyeline in the Upper East, and I wasn't aware of anybody sitting on their hands awaiting the VAR decision.

 

[beorhthelm]

- Do NOT use goal line tech in the same conversation as VAR. Goal line tech is an instant decision and is a FACT. It is brilliant.

this gave me a brain wave to apply to offside. make it detected with something in the players boots. its not quite perfect, but their body cant be more than a foot or so "offside", and that discrepancy is made up for the certainty and instant decision a la goal line.

and massively agree on pointless linesman, they are redundant now. they dont flag offside and apparently dont see any infringement in the box either. they do nothing to assist the referee.

 

[Nobby]

I’m not even pro VAR, but I think us as fans are hypocritical. We all go mental when a mistake is made,l that costs us a game or points, and talk about all the money in football blah blah, but now don’t want a game where there are no costly mistakes made

But there still are!!!!!

Man City vs Tottenham on Saturday. Cast iron pen missed. VAR is supposedly cutting out all errors, even the 2mm ones. But that pen was cast f ing iron!!!!
So unless you use it properly what is the point of it?