[Politics] Reshuffle news...

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sunak deciding a bit of squad rotation is required, but finding his squad is so utterly shit he has to get not quite as shit Dave Cameron in on loan.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It would be nice if PR delivered a perpetual center coalition, allowing the arguments about immigration, gender identity and all the other issues currently populating the 'woke' versus 'caant' culture war to fade gently away.

On the downside, I am not sure I want a permanent grey government, and I am confident it would not shut down the extreme voices. The likes of Farage, who can monetize his old bollocks without getting remotely near being an MP at present, would very certainly now be sitting in parliament. In addition his current media presence, which is almost zero (I have never ever heard of him, have you? No idea who he is) would mushroom with his added credibility as a actual MP. People would start to hear him. And there would be loads of flies attracted to his shit.

You also seem to forget that we would need two polarized parties who vacuum up most of the votes presently to morph themselves into carey-sharey middle grounders, happy to work with other parties, giving up power of their own to....

Oh hang on. You think labour and tory would simply self combust if we had a PR system. Er....why? Why would the green, liberals, BNP, NF, GB First etc not also combust with PR?

You think labour and tory would disintegrate because they are already coalitions, if we brought in PR? Why would the biggest most successful parties (in terms of their ability to win and govern, even if badly) voluntarily liquidate themselves just because of PR? What drives individuals and collectives (parties) that seek power? The pursuit of power, obviously.

No, not that this will ever happen anyway (because labour and tory are against) but why would any of them even think about wanting it? Only the liberals, of the main parties want it - because it is the only way they think they will get some power.

This is not about what I want. It is about what is feasible. PR for parliament is not feasible. £200 to REMF if it happens in my lifetime.

(It would take labour and/or tories, from a position of power having been elected as a majority government to voluntarily impose a PR system that would disadvantage them, following which each main party would voluntarily dismantle itself into small like-minded factions, with a view to forming a coalition. Sorry I'll be back along to add more later, but I think I just heard Shergar neighing at my patio door)

I get the impression that I'm beginning to win you round

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I get the impression that I'm beginning to win you round

Always a pleasure to chat. Somewhere in my tiny mind is a collection of nerves and ganglia that are open to PR. They may be quite near the nodes and ganglia that are open to threesomes and heroin, but that's neither here nor there

 

[Colonel Mustard]

As noted a million times, if you want the BNP, NF, SWP and any number of mad Christian and Islamist single issue parties all sitting around the table at number ten, you're welcome.

If 5% of the public support the BNP and 5% of the public support the Revolutionary Communist Party (or any other batshit-crazy party) then yes, they should each have 5% of the representatives in parliament. I have no interest in either party but I’m a democrat, and I'm afraid democracy sucks sometimes. It’s pretty outrageous to dictate who should or shouldn’t be allowed in parliament.

I'm happy with the system we have now.

A bad VAR decision is like a bad election. There is no need to bin the system. Just make sure we have better candidates/Var officials. If you don't think your local party is selecting the right candidates, get involved! Unfortunately VAR won't improve all the while the refs are marking their own homework. Maybe we could make refereeing decisions using PR?

(People ONLY support PR because they think it will increase the likelihood of their favourite team winning. Fact).

The crisis for democracy in this country is nothing to do with choosing better candidates. The problem with FPTP is that a large proportion of people are essentially disenfranchised which in turn breeds massive cynicism and division. Let people be represented for heavens sake.

My enthusiasm for PR is nothing whatever to do with trying to increase the chances for any particular party I’m favouring at any particular time. It’s 100% based on a desire for a more democratic political system, even if this works against my own preferences.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I agree that coalitions would be the future, but I don't believe either the Conservatives or Labour would be able to hold their current 'parties' (which are really huge coalitions of people with nothing in common other than the pursuit of absolute power) together. Both would split into a number of parties and Starmer and Corbyn, Johnson and Rory Stewart wouldn't have been bedfellows in the first place.

Personally I would prefer a choice of parties led by Starmer, Corbyn, Stewart, Johnson, Lucas and Farage than what we got in 2019 (although I'm sure a few years of PR would give even more choice). @Harry Wilson's tackle is worried that the country's government would be subservient to extreme parties, that he thinks would be necessary in order to form a Government and wants to keep FPTP.

So FPTP gives you a choice of Johnson or Corbyn and 'the electorate' decide to go for Johnson, Patel, Braverman, Truss, Kwarteng etc, with no extremists there whatsoever

I think that in Britain, most votes would go to the moderate parties, most moderate parties would be 'in' Government after every election and we could start having to take long term grown up views about how to Govern Britain, rather than blaming the 'other lot' every few years

*edit*
(And, I don't have a favourite Team - Fact )
BNP, NF, GBNews, Likud, the UDA and Britain First in coalition with the Conservatives ? I think there may be a bit of double counting there

I think we broadly agree.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Always a pleasure to chat. Somewhere in my tiny mind is a collection of nerves and ganglia that are open to PR. They may be quite near the nodes and ganglia that are open to threesomes and heroin, but that's neither here nor there

You can take the boy out of Easthill ....................

 

[The Clamp]

Mrs. Atkins from No. 15 is made minister for 1950’s housewives and ration recipes.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If 5% of the public support the BNP and 5% of the public support the Revolutionary Communist Party (or any other batshit-crazy party) then yes, they should each have 5% of the representatives in parliament. I have no interest in either party but I’m a democrat, and I'm afraid democracy sucks sometimes. It’s pretty outrageous to dictate who should or shouldn’t be allowed in parliament.

The crisis for democracy in this country is nothing to do with choosing better candidates. The problem with FPTP is that a large proportion of people are essentially disenfranchised which in turn breeds massive cynicism and division. Let people represented for heavens sake.

My enthusiasm for PR is nothing whatever to do with trying to increase the chances for any particular party I’m favouring at any particular time. It’s 100% based on a desire for a more democratic political system, even if this works against my own preferences.

1. I wouldn't dream of that. Let the electorate decide, By FPTP. And that's not an order. It is what we have now. I'm a conservative with a small c, perhaps

2. This disenfranchised business is very moot. I hear lots of people who don't get what they want claiming they are disenfranchised. My mate's Corbynista daughter for example. Boo hoo.

We need a working government. I am content to let things ride and 'suffer' being in the 'disenfranchised' opposition for a while if my preferred party fails to be elected as the government. That's fair. My preference lost. Why should my views (for example, about the EU and immigration) be incorporated into laws? I voted remain and lost. I can't say that's not 'fair' and I demand to have at least some of the benefits we had when we were still in the EU. The fact is I didn't win, so we have left the EU. PR would not have fixed that. Some choices are binary.

You last point is that you favour PR because it is 'more democratic' 'even if this works against my own preferences'. If you don't get what you voted for, how would that be different from what we have now? You could vote green and end up with a blue MP under FPTP or PR, albeit with PR there may be 1500 MPs so you may return 1 green and 2 blue MPs from your constituency. That would be 'fairer' than none. But if the blues get the most seats you are back to square one. Democracy works at the level of your MP and the formation of HMG. They are not the same thing. You also may vote red, end up with an orange MP but a red government. That's how it works now, and how it would work under PR.

The bottom line is that the only way to get the working majority government that you want is by voting for the party supported by the most voters. Dicking around with the system to make it harder for any one party to end up with a majority is not a solution - it's tomfoolery.

So I fail to see how any other system would be fairer than FPTP, especially if it works against my interest. Unless you are equally happy with your preferred party winning outright and winning to form a coalition. Personally if labour formed a coalition with CPGB, Militant and the IRA I would be very displeased.

Anyway.....

 

[The Clamp]

And loses. K.O round 1

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

You could vote green and end up with a blue MP under FPTP or PR, albeit with PR there may be 1500 MPs so you may return 1 green and 2 blue MPs from your constituency.

Why would a switch to PR (or the STV system, which is what the Electoral Reform Society actually advocate) lead to an increase in the number of MPs?
The only obvious reason would seem to be somebody deliberately hypothosising a system that lowers the bar to become an MP so low that they can complain about more extreme nutcases getting into parliament.

 

[Motogull]

FFS. From everything I've seen, that's not going to be much better. Hopefully not for the same reasons and we might see a change (softening) in rhetoric, but I wouldn't expect any actual improvement in Home Office policy and performance with Cleverly in charge.

I can't hear or think of his name without 'not very' sneaking in before his surname.

Could bring back Hauge too, but is he too sensible?

No. He's too strange.

We know that James Cleverly had been Deputy then Chairman of the Conservative Party for c. 3 years (mainly during Covid when nobody could see what he was up to and when parties were a daily occurrence), but his Cabinet Minister CV is breath-taking in its breadth and brevity. He is the very definition of 'Jack of all trades, master of none":

Yup, bland and confident and that's about it. Completely uninspiring but with such a bunch of kunnts to choose from, you can see why he gets the gig time and time again.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We don’t 'get' coalitions because FPTP makes coalitions pretty rare beasts. Under some form of PR however, we’d probably have a permanent coalition and would have no choice but to change with the times, and behave like most democracies. I struggle to see how PR will ever come about though, as long as both main parties refuse to embrace it.

That's very fair comment. I agree with everything else you say here, too.

I suppose the question I have for myself is: do I want a coalition? I appreciate that we were faced recently between a choice of two extremist options (Jezza and Johnson) and yet I am still 60:40 against coalitions. Gut instinct mainly.

No doubt I'd soon come around if it turned out to be OK after all. Nicer. And that. Nob parties marginalized despite getting some MP bums on seats.

But I'm with you that presently it is hard to see how this can come about. How could change be effected? Over to you @WATFORD zero. If we accept as our hypothesis that PR would deliver coalitions and this would make UK politics better, how do we get this in place, give that those making the decision are turkeys being invited to vote for Crimbo?

Oh and as a side question, how can we deprive extremist parties, newly endowed with seats thanks to PR, the oxygen of publicity?

 

[WATFORD zero]

That's very fair comment. I agree with everything else you say here, too.

I suppose the question I have for myself is: do I want a coalition? I appreciate that we were faced recently between a choice of two extremist options (Jezza and Johnson) and yet I am still 60:40 against coalitions. Gut instinct mainly.

No doubt I'd soon come around if it turned out to be OK after all. Nicer. And that. Nob parties marginalized despite getting some MP bums on seats.

But I'm with you that presently it is hard to see how this can come about. How could change be effected? Over to you @WATFORD zero. If we accept as our hypothesis that PR would deliver coalitions and this would make UK politics better, how do we get this in place, give that those making the decision are turkeys being invited to vote for Crimbo?

Oh and as a side question, how can we deprive extremist parties, newly endowed with seats thanks to PR, the oxygen of publicity?

After years and years of pleading 'please don't vote for this s***show, time and time again, I honestly don't know how to get out of this complete clusterf*** which the electorate of Britain completely and utterly deserve.

It is so tempting to say I'm OK and wander off

I don't know how we get proper change, but I really don't think more of the same is the answer. Maybe when I haven't had dinner and a few glasses, I may have a better idea. Sadly, maybe not

And on the Extremist party stuff, I really don't believe there's as many stupid c**** in society as you think

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

After years and years of pleading 'please don't vote for this s***show, time and time again, I honestly don't know how to get out of this complete clusterf*** which the electorate of Britain completely and utterly deserve.

It is so tempting to say I'm OK and wander off

I don't know how we get proper change, but I really don't think more of the same is the answer. Maybe when I haven't had dinner and a few glasses, I may have a better idea. Sadly, maybe not

And on the Extremist party stuff, I really don't believe there's as many stupid c**** in society as you think

Well my first bid is, oh, fifteen million? Higher?

The rest of you post makes me a little sad. It is easy for me. I have High Hopes we will get a moderately sensible labour government soon, which will please me, and I also have hopes the nation may become more socialist over time, (in a modern style, perhaps with a new label). If, on the other hand, you yearn for a cleaner room an a quieter floor (to miss-quote Nabokov) then I can understand how frustrating it must be.

Best wishes!

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well my first bid is, oh, fifteen million? Higher?

The rest of you post makes me a little sad. It is easy for me. I have High Hopes we will get a moderately sensible labour government soon, which will please me, and I also have hopes the nation may become more socialist over time, (in a modern style, perhaps with a new label). If, on the other hand, you yearn for a cleaner room an a quieter floor (to miss-quote Nabokov) then I can understand how frustrating it must be.

Best wishes!

I'm just a cynical old bastard, but I agree with 95% of what you say which makes you a 95% cynical old ...

 

[A1X]

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Sorry, I didn’t totally understand that.

For me, one of the most appealing, yet unpredictable, aspects of PR is that all political parties would be reshaped with several new small parties appearing who may well hold the balance of power in a coalition. At the moment you’d expect a roughly left / socially liberal coalition to take power but in the future that might well switch back to the right. In that respect nothing would change but we’d have far more parties having some real power, and voices being heard that were previously silent. Most important, voting turnout would increase significantly, with far fewer people thinking their votes didn’t count as they lived in a ‘safe seat'. All quite exciting I think.

Germany has had probably exclusively coalition governments since the allies imposed proportional representation on them after the Second World War….. and look what a mess they are in!

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I can't remember what was in the 2019 Tory manifesto TBH, apart from 'get Brexit done', and I'm really not minded to go and research it. I'm pretty sure they would say that COVID and Ukraine have totally changed the economic landscape and priorities.

Obviously there are many flaws in our democracy and electoral system. Some form of PR is long overdue, and I'm disappointed that Starmer has ruled out electoral reform. Unfortunately no Labour or Tory government is likely to change an electoral system that has brought them to power, and swap it for one that will almost certainly keep them out of power forever (except as part of a broad coalition).

As for Cameron, it's permitted under current rules to have someone in the Lords acting as a govt minister. Didn't Blair have someone? And I'm pretty sure Thatcher did but I can't recall who. Again, not saying it's a good system but it's how things have always been. In a weird way I think Cameron might just make a half decent Foreign Secretary. At least we know who he is, as do the foreign leaders he'll be dealing with.

Blair had Lord Mandelson as minister for Business or something similar.
Thatcher had Lord Carrington asForeign Secretary.

 

[Bodian]

Germany has had probably exclusively coalition governments since the allies imposed proportional representation on them after the Second World War….. and look what a mess they are in!

They didn't even get out of their group in the World Cup 2022, but luckily qualify as hosts for the 2024 Euros.

 

[Lenny Rider]

(Something, something.....looks it up on Wikipedia......)

At the General election! Yes, that will be the time

But when smartarse

Every day this lot are in power many people in this country are suffering unnecessarily