Religions of peace? A thread for sober discussion.

[jimhigham]

you probably want to consider that its not the same book, the old and new testement are essentially two very different text with different authors and audiences. its like having a sequel written a decade later by a different person with different view. which is a shame really because jettisoning all that fire and brimstone crap, theres much to commend part II.

Now I was waiting for that one to come up. If I accept that all the nasty fire and brimstone stuff is contained in the Old Testament and can safely be jettisoned, then I also have to dispatch The Ten Commandments, which are in the same book.

This gets to the heart of the Bible A La Carte that ultimately turned me off faith. It seems that believers cherry pick the good and disown the bad. Don't get me wrong. If everybody did that we would have a considerably more peaceful planet than we do now. That doesn't make it any more true though.

Also, I should say that I don't for one minute believe that the world would be a kind and loving place if we could just get past religion. Mankind seems to love a good scrap and will almost certainly keep doing so. We'll scrap over tribes, borders, resources, Honey Badger v (insert hard creature here)...

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

This gets to the heart of the Bible A La Carte that ultimately turned me off faith. It seems that believers cherry pick the good and disown the bad. Don't get me wrong. If everybody did that we would have a considerably more peaceful planet than we do now. That doesn't make it any more true though.

I think it all has to be seen through a cultural lens.

All the good bits seem to me to be written in a language of the 'lowest common denominator' to ensure that it is accessible to all. If you're unable to understand the metaphors it is creating then you can always fall back to the literal text - of course you'd have to be a student of history to understand the context. Interpretation as usual is everything and most humans just like things simple and to be told what to do and believe. Which is a shame, but i guess it takes all sorts to get our tribal genetic code down the line.

Read any 'religions' guide and there simply isn't the proper language to relate the nature of spirituality. Zen uses meditation on complex riddles for enlightenment, Christianity uses some mindfulness and guided meditations through imagery and ritual.

 

[The Camel]

John Niven's series of tweets on Islamic fundamentalists:



@NivenJ1 · Jan 7

Maybe we say to all Islamic fundamentalist groups 'ok. You can have your own state. You can have a massive wall around it to keep us out

@NivenJ1 · Jan 7

But the condition is: people must be free to leave your state. You can't keep them there against their will or force them to believe.

@NivenJ1 · Jan 7

So you crack on with the stoning gays and the beheadings and treating women like dogs and no art or music or booze. And we'll be here... 3/4

NivenJ1 · Jan 7

...With the Rolling Stones and Iris Murdoch and malt whisky and shit like that. See you at the finish line *****. 4/4

 

[Dick Head]

Tl;dr

 

[OzMike]

As far as ISIS is concerned, being a non Muslim, or from westernised countries carry's the death sentence.
No trial required and no jury.
If the Muslim silent majority, who say they condemn these actions, do not actively do something to stop them, then they will be seen to be guilty as a consequence.
Things are not getting any better and further deterioration could lead to a proper conflict between them and everybody else.
When will it be time for all the nations in the world to collectively show their teeth and do a proper job, instead of try and fight fires.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I think it all has to be seen through a cultural lens.

All the good bits seem to me to be written in a language of the 'lowest common denominator' to ensure that it is accessible to all. If you're unable to understand the metaphors it is creating then you can always fall back to the literal text - of course you'd have to be a student of history to understand the context. Interpretation as usual is everything and most humans just like things simple and to be told what to do and believe. Which is a shame, but i guess it takes all sorts to get our tribal genetic code down the line.

There is a lot of truth in this certainly with the bible and I'm told by Muslim friends, the Koran as well. The old testament is is mixture of history and legend and as such details the struggles of the Israelites in their search for a homeland etc. As a religious book any battles are placed contextually within the idea of godly justification. I would imagine that were any people group of a similar number to document their story, that each tale would be filled with similar acts of violence and full of justification from whichever belief system they held at the time. The fact that the old testament has the Ten Commandments is, I think, a triumph for the Jews. It shows they wanted a better way, a just way. The new testament casts aside 'law' by which a person can keep doing good in the vain hope that they will reach God that way, and replaced it with grace and faith in Jesus. In my opinion, the verse 'do unto others as you would have done to yourself' is genius. If only, myself included, we could actually put that into practice, the world would definitely be a better place.

 

[jimhigham]

Interesting. Green Cross Code Man, my sense from reading your post is that you are some form of believer. Apologies if I have that wrong. I quite agree that the injunction to "do unto others as you would have done yourself" would make a superb blueprint for the success of mankind. I would not label it a biblical triumph, as there have been variations of The Golden Rule expressed throughout history and many of these pre-date Christianity.

In any case, what you seem to have done (to my admittedly untrained eye) is set out a context whereby the violence in the holy texts is explicable. This is largely what I feel is required of the major religions to demonstrate precisely why the violent passages in holy texts should be read more as a sort of history textbook and less of an instruction manual.

That's a noble thing. Now how do we get all the fundamentalists to sign up to that?

 

[Guinness Boy]

"islam" is no more one thing than Christianity. A basic five minutes paying attention to the news would tell you the battles between Shiia and Sunni sects with the latter breeding the Wahhabism that has emerged from Saudi to inspire groups like ISIS and the Taliban. I have two muslims in the same office as me and they couldn't be more different. One is Westernised having been born in Manchester to Pakistani parents. His wife does not wear the veil, his female kids are well educated and, while he doesn;t drink, he doesn't often ask if a meat meal is halal. The other has a beard, covers his head and gets embarrassed at things that are even slightly crude. Only ever brings his own food in. We allow him time for prayers on a Friday. He was born in Somalia. You really couldn't find two more different people yet so many Westerners see them as just "muslim" and expect them to condemn acts they would never think of committing themselves.

Have to agree with [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] re being able to understand religion without following it. I consider myself athiest. I didn't just arrive at this one day but my current position is that I need to be able to see and touch something to believe in it. I have read some fascinating stuff about other religions though. One of my favourite authors is William Dalrymple, a Christian travel writer. His books about travelling round the Levant discovering rare or oppressed religions like Coptic Christians or Zoroastrians are fascinating reading. As a natural sceptic I just can't force myself to join in.

Where I do start getting issues is when groups of people get together to deliberately promote stupidity. Again this is not limited to strict Islamic groups stopping girls from going to school. It's just as applicable to fundamentalist Christians in the mid west not wanting science taught at school or (IMO) some of the stranger practices of Orthodox Judaism. I'm fine with someone having faith - someone close to me relies on theirs to get them through the day sometimes - but I would prefer they arrived at it by thinking for themselves.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

You seem to know a lot about the contents of the bible for an atheist.
Atheists interest me.
Do you never say oh my god.
If you are in a serious situation ( trouble or health for example) have you ever had a quick prayer even subconsciously for a bit of help.
If something very bad has happened to you, have you looked up with a clenched fist and called God a *******.
At half time in the FA Cup Final, did you not go up your back garden and sink to your knees and pray to the almighty that if Brighton win I promise I will go to church every Sunday, give money to charity and that you will be nice to everyone.
Then Smith missed a sitter and I have questioned the meaning of religion ever since.

Nope don't do any of that in the slightest - why would I, complete waste of time. I understand how religion came about in simpler times when nothing was about science or how anything occurred, and I understand how down the centuries it was used to supress and control the masses and make money. These days I don't really understand how it persists in educated people when there is clearly nothing in it. To repeat why Fry said, why would you have to pray to a god that you would want to believe in - that's a very arrogant god. I see nothing positive about religion whatsoever.

To paraphrase, all religion is bollox.

 

[BigGully]

Personally I have always fancied a bit of Paganism, seems reasonable to be inclined to look spiritually at the natural world etc

I guess it was a way to try and control fate and improve the chances of food, but beats the other stuff.

 

[Superphil]

You seem to know a lot about the contents of the bible for an atheist.
Atheists interest me.
Do you never say oh my god.
If you are in a serious situation ( trouble or health for example) have you ever had a quick prayer even subconsciously for a bit of help. .

Rather good lyrics to a rather good song that seems to cover the points you're making.

Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you?
Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?

When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool?
Well I have seen the truth, yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways
And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days

Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
that God is the only way to love

Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun?

I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near, say you don't believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down, now you can't retrieve

Perhaps you'll think before you say that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one
The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate
Or will you still jeer at all you hear? Yes! I think it's too late.

 

[goldstone]

The only thing that has tempered the brutality that evolved down the centuries from the bible is the education the western world has built on during this and the last century. The more educated we are, the more we question the 'nonsense' of religion.

The problem with Islam, is the lack of education. With IS and their various and murderous affilliated groups (Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, etc etc etc) their is little (almost certainly none) chance of these savages joining the civilised world. Education is out for them.....and without it, their violence will never decrease.

Lack of education provides a fertile recruiting ground for all religions. The ignorant do not have the brains to question religion, gods, prayer, and all that goes with it. You are correct that new recruits to islam tend to be the poorly educated, but so are those attracted to the african christian sects, and to the baptists and other far right christian groups in the USA. If you want to grow your church or grow your religion the last group you can hope to recruit is the well educated.

 

[BigGully]

"islam" is no more one thing than Christianity. A basic five minutes paying attention to the news would tell you the battles between Shiia and Sunni sects with the latter breeding the Wahhabism that has emerged from Saudi to inspire groups like ISIS and the Taliban. I have two muslims in the same office as me and they couldn't be more different. One is Westernised having been born in Manchester to Pakistani parents. His wife does not wear the veil, his female kids are well educated and, while he doesn;t drink, he doesn't often ask if a meat meal is halal. The other has a beard, covers his head and gets embarrassed at things that are even slightly crude. Only ever brings his own food in. We allow him time for prayers on a Friday. He was born in Somalia. You really couldn't find two more different people yet so many Westerners see them as just "muslim" and expect them to condemn acts they would never think of committing themselves.

How would I see your 'Western Muslim', I wouldnt know.

He is no more Muslim as I am Christian, neither of us are religious, your other colleague is not moderate his actions to me seems quite extreme and I suspect hides a more inward view on our western culture but cannot be sure.

Religion that starts to impinge on working/social life is for me a little odd, the African happy clappy trance like congregations is also a creepy thing to see.

They are all a step backwards.

 

[greyseagull]

Cue [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION] [MENTION=11956]bushy[/MENTION] @sir_albion. Let's go.....

I almost typed exactly the same thing. Although I was going to throw [MENTION=5707]Nibble[/MENTION] into the mix.

 

[User removed 4]

"islam" is no more one thing than Christianity. A basic five minutes paying attention to the news would tell you the battles between Shiia and Sunni sects with the latter breeding the Wahhabism that has emerged from Saudi to inspire groups like ISIS and the Taliban. I have two muslims in the same office as me and they couldn't be more different. One is Westernised having been born in Manchester to Pakistani parents. His wife does not wear the veil, his female kids are well educated and, while he doesn;t drink, he doesn't often ask if a meat meal is halal. The other has a beard, covers his head and gets embarrassed at things that are even slightly crude. Only ever brings his own food in. We allow him time for prayers on a Friday. He was born in Somalia. You really couldn't find two more different people yet so many Westerners see them as just "muslim" and expect them to condemn acts they would never think of committing themselves.

Have to agree with [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] re being able to understand religion without following it. I consider myself athiest. I didn't just arrive at this one day but my current position is that I need to be able to see and touch something to believe in it. I have read some fascinating stuff about other religions though. One of my favourite authors is William Dalrymple, a Christian travel writer. His books about travelling round the Levant discovering rare or oppressed religions like Coptic Christians or Zoroastrians are fascinating reading. As a natural sceptic I just can't force myself to join in.

Where I do start getting issues is when groups of people get together to deliberately promote stupidity. Again this is not limited to strict Islamic groups stopping girls from going to school. It's just as applicable to fundamentalist Christians in the mid west not wanting science taught at school or (IMO) some of the stranger practices of Orthodox Judaism. I'm fine with someone having faith - someone close to me relies on theirs to get them through the day sometimes - but I would prefer they arrived at it by thinking for themselves.

A really valuable addition to this country then, has fitted in well and adds to the social cohesion of London......not, people like him make white liberals feel all warm and fuzzy about our 'wonderful multicultural melting pot' but only serve to widen the divisions in our country, and add to the perception that the White working class 'don't matter' to those who made the decisions to let these people in.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Interesting. Green Cross Code Man, my sense from reading your post is that you are some form of believer. Apologies if I have that wrong. I quite agree that the injunction to "do unto others as you would have done yourself" would make a superb blueprint for the success of mankind. I would not label it a biblical triumph, as there have been variations of The Golden Rule expressed throughout history and many of these pre-date Christianity.

In any case, what you seem to have done (to my admittedly untrained eye) is set out a context whereby the violence in the holy texts is explicable. This is largely what I feel is required of the major religions to demonstrate precisely why the violent passages in holy texts should be read more as a sort of history textbook and less of an instruction manual.

That's a noble thing. Now how do we get all the fundamentalists to sign up to that?

Thanks, yes you read my intentions correctly. And yes I'm a follower of the way, however, it's often a case of 'I believe, help my unbelief.'

Lack of education provides a fertile recruiting ground for all religions. The ignorant do not have the brains to question religion, gods, prayer, and all that goes with it. You are correct that new recruits to islam tend to be the poorly educated, but so are those attracted to the african christian sects, and to the baptists and other far right christian groups in the USA. If you want to grow your church or grow your religion the last group you can hope to recruit is the well educated.

That's not always the case. Many of the terrorists involved with Bin Laden were highly educated as indeed was he. I was once a member of a large church in Liverpool and there was a very high number of graduates. I would estimate 50% upwards.

 

[Guinness Boy]

How would I see your 'Western Muslim', I wouldnt know.

He is no more Muslim as I am Christian, neither of us are religious, your other colleague is not moderate his actions to me seems quite extreme and I suspect hides a more inward view on our western culture but cannot be sure.

Religion that starts to impinge on working/social life is for me a little odd, the African happy clappy trance like congregations is also a creepy thing to see.

They are all a step backwards.

Well both identify themselves as Islamic or followers of the Muslim faith so you're wrong about the first. There's nothing strange about a muslim covering their head or joining Friday prayers either, it's exactly the same as a Christian wearing a cross or roseary beads to work and popping in to a church at lunchtime.

 

[Guinness Boy]

A really valuable addition to this country then, has fitted in well and adds to the social cohesion of London......not, people like him make white liberals feel all warm and fuzzy about our 'wonderful multicultural melting pot' but only serve to widen the divisions in our country, and add to the perception that the White working class 'don't matter' to those who made the decisions to let these people in.

We've been down this road 100 times already on NSC and I'm not going back down it today. Instead let me ask you a different question. Let's say you were offered a lucrative, tax-free contract in Saudi. Would you immediately grow a beard and spend your free time in a mosque or would you be more inclined to head to an ex-pat party to drink whisky from Liptons Ice Tea bottles and compare your bank balances, as my wife's cousin who lived in Saudi for 20 years often observed?

 

[BigGully]

Well both identify themselves as Islamic or followers of the Muslim faith so you're wrong about the first. There's nothing strange about a muslim covering their head or joining Friday prayers either, it's exactly the same as a Christian wearing a cross or roseary beads to work and popping in to a church at lunchtime.

But there isnt anything outwardly that would identify him as Muslim, I am not sure someone wearing a cross would necessarily mean that someone is Christian, I used to wear a small cross in my teens but not as some association with religion, just a bit of 70's bling.

I cannot remember seeing anyone with roseary beads either and cannot know if someone might visit a church all very low key actions even if I did see it.

 

[Guinness Boy]

But there isnt anything outwardly that would identify him as Muslim, I am not sure someone wearing a cross would necessarily mean that someone is Christian, I used to wear a small cross in my teens but not as some association with religion, just a bit of 70's bling.

I cannot remember seeing anyone with roseary beads either and cannot know if someone might visit a church all very low key actions even if I did see it.

I'm using two people I know to illustrate the point that Islam is not one thing in totality. Why would you need to identify my colleague (and friend) as a muslim? I don't walk round with "Athiest" tattooed on my head.