Religions of peace? A thread for sober discussion.

[Soulman]

It will probably come to that in the end because, with dreadful certainty, Islamists will perpetrate a terrorist act of such magnitude that the world will be plunged into some sort of religious war with everyone forced to take a stance unlike the current wishy washy Muslim response of "we condemn this act as Mohammed was a man of peace and Islam is only about tolerance" whilst simultaneously producing thousands of potential jihadists eager to stab us in the back in the UK and elsewhere.

a number of Jewish thinkers have recently been looking at historical purges, pogroms and massacres from the perspective of non Jews and, courageously, have recognised that the Jewish practices of usury, political manipulation and otherness within host countries like Russia, Germany and others (Britain included) had led to mistrust and antagonism towards Jews and ended at Treblinka and Sobibor.

Muslims should spend some more time looking at this. The tenets of their faith are often in direct opposition to the cultures of the countries where they choose to settle. Muslims choose to live in western countries because they want to escape from the depredation and suppression they experience in their countries of origin...obviously by other Muslims...however, once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among.

If they don't go through this self examination they will suffer when the world turns its back on Islam in disgust.

This is a very valid point. " Muslims choose to live in western countries because they want to escape from the depredation and suppression they experience in their countries of origin...obviously by other Muslims...however, once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

"islam" is no more one thing than Christianity. A basic five minutes paying attention to the news would tell you the battles between Shiia and Sunni sects with the latter breeding the Wahhabism that has emerged from Saudi to inspire groups like ISIS and the Taliban. I have two muslims in the same office as me and they couldn't be more different. One is Westernised having been born in Manchester to Pakistani parents. His wife does not wear the veil, his female kids are well educated and, while he doesn;t drink, he doesn't often ask if a meat meal is halal. The other has a beard, covers his head and gets embarrassed at things that are even slightly crude. Only ever brings his own food in. We allow him time for prayers on a Friday. He was born in Somalia. You really couldn't find two more different people yet so many Westerners see them as just "muslim" and expect them to condemn acts they would never think of committing themselves.
.

My best mate at work is a Bangladeshi Muslim who is very similar to the Pakistani bloke you describe...let me tell you a bit about him.
His parents are "strict" Muslims. No drinking etc. but he decided to ignore some of the more extreme stuff and went very western in his outlook. He went to uni to study pharmacy and was berated there by other Muslims because he drank and dated British girls. He was berated by his family because he was a "bad" Muslim and was told by his imam that he was a kaffur and Allah had his card marked. He was sent offensive messages, ignored and excluded from family celebrations whilst he just got on with his life in hospital pharmacies. He married an English girl and settled down to life with her.

Then.
She had an affair with some teenager while he was working long hours, he was beaten up by the lads mates when he threw her out and was hospitalised. He started getting grief from her family and was told he was a "dirty paki". He had to move in to my flat temporarily because of the hassle.

After all this he decided to give up on multiculturalism. He went back to his family, asked for forgiveness for his western ways, accepted an arranged marriage with a Bangladeshi woman and has given up drinking and western interests ( except Man Utd.) and is now deliriously happy. He's still a great mate although he has moved away but is now religious and much less accessible on a social level.
It's quite illustrative, I think, of the problems faced by those who integrate most. They are not fully part of one society or another and I completely understand why he feels most comfortable within his own cultural setting than mine.

 

[symyjym]

This is a very valid point. " Muslims choose to live in western countries because they want to escape from the depredation and suppression they experience in their countries of origin...obviously by other Muslims...however, once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"

I don't think that is strictly true for the ones that choose to move over here for the reasons you describe. It is probably more relevant to their children though, who are born in this country, and who have failed to live up to their parent’s dreams of achieving high, academically. It is almost a standard in their culture for them to all want their children to become doctors.

 

[Soulman]

I don't think that is strictly true for the ones that choose to move over here for the reasons you describe. It is probably more relevant to their children though, who are born in this country, and who have failed to live up to their parent’s dreams of achieving high, academically. It is almost a standard in their culture for them to all want their children to become doctors.

" who have failed to live up to their parent’s dreams of achieving high, academically. It is almost a standard in their culture for them to all want their children to become doctors. ". Sorry you have lost me.
What is what they achieve got to do with the quote "This is a very valid point. " Muslims choose to live in western countries because they want to escape from the depredation and suppression they experience in their countries of origin...obviously by other Muslims...however, once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"
It is about how SOME "once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"

 

[symyjym]

" who have failed to live up to their parent’s dreams of achieving high, academically. It is almost a standard in their culture for them to all want their children to become doctors. ". Sorry you have lost me.
What is what they achieve got to do with the quote "This is a very valid point. " Muslims choose to live in western countries because they want to escape from the depredation and suppression they experience in their countries of origin...obviously by other Muslims...however, once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"
It is about how SOME "once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"

You mean a bit like British expats who build their own communities in every other country around the world. Muslims aren't solely guilty of this and every culture does the same, it's just that they are sticking out like a sore thumb at the moment.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

" who have failed to live up to their parent’s dreams of achieving high, academically. It is almost a standard in their culture for them to all want their children to become doctors. ". Sorry you have lost me.
What is what they achieve got to do with the quote "This is a very valid point. " Muslims choose to live in western countries because they want to escape from the depredation and suppression they experience in their countries of origin...obviously by other Muslims...however, once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"
It is about how SOME "once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"

Here is an interesting development in France. http://www.france24.com/en/20150212-france-new-muslim-party-local-elections-bobigny-udmf/
They want to overturn the ban on head scarfs in schools, backs Turkey to join the EU and invest in Halal food to create jobs.

 

[Soulman]

Here is an interesting development in France. http://www.france24.com/en/20150212-france-new-muslim-party-local-elections-bobigny-udmf/
They want to overturn the ban on head scarfs in schools, backs Turkey to join the EU and invest in Halal food to create jobs.

Here we go, drip drip drip. Just like we were saying, don't really want to integrate, just want to push on and get their own laws etc implemented. Surely there are plenty of countries to get/have their way.

 

[Soulman]

You mean a bit like British expats who build their own communities in every other country around the world. Muslims aren't solely guilty of this and every culture does the same, it's just that they are sticking out like a sore thumb at the moment.

Do the ex pats want their own laws? do they want to behead and blow up the country they live in......do they hate the country that they have CHOSEN to live in?
Well?
Like the other religions and cultures in this country, which may "build their own communities" and cause no trouble and respect the country they live in, the ex pats seem to do the same in the countries that they choose to live in.

They are "sticking out like a sore thumb at the moment." because they are the ones that are causing trouble, not the other religions or cultures that live here.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

You mean a bit like British expats who build their own communities in every other country around the world. Muslims aren't solely guilty of this and every culture does the same, it's just that they are sticking out like a sore thumb at the moment.

by and large British ex pats fall into two distict groups. Young working people who do their very best to " fit in" with the locals or retired folk who just want to sit in the sunshine until they peg it.

There's thousands of Brits living in, for example,Arab countries who would not dream of insisting on eating pork chops or getting pissed in public as they know that to do so would be
A. deeply offensive
B. Likely to result in prison

I'm sick of the comparison that Brits abroad behave badly or expect to be treated differently so migrants to the UK are entitled to do so. It's clearly a stupid answer to a very complex issue.

If I moved to Somalia I wouldn't think it was OK for my missus to go about in a bikini or for me to walk around in a "f*ck Allah" tee shirt so it's NOT ok for them to cover their wives in a black sheet and take deadly offence because someone draws a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head and to shoot the artist.

You clearly haven't thought this through.

 

[Soulman]

by and large British ex pats fall into two distict groups. Young working people who do their very best to " fit in" with the locals or retired folk who just want to sit in the sunshine until they peg it.

There's thousands of Brits living in, for example,Arab countries who would not dream of insisting on eating pork chops or getting pissed in public as they know that to do so would be
A. deeply offensive
B. Likely to result in prison

I'm sick of the comparison that Brits abroad behave badly or expect to be treated differently so migrants to the UK are entitled to do so. It's clearly a stupid answer to a very complex issue.

If I moved to Somalia I wouldn't think it was OK for my missus to go about in a bikini or for me to walk around in a "f*ck Allah" tee shirt so it's NOT ok for them to cover their wives in a black sheet and take deadly offence because someone draws a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head and to shoot the artist.

You clearly haven't thought this through.

He clearly hasn't. In his haste to try and compare other groups, in this case ex pats, with many of the Muslim communities living in the west, it's laughable really.
A good post and spot on.

 

[beorhthelm]

Do the ex pats want their own laws? do they want to behead and blow up the country they live in......do they hate the country that they have CHOSEN to live in?
Well?
Like the other religions and cultures in this country, which may "build their own communities" and cause no trouble and respect the country they live in, the ex pats seem to do the same in the countries that they choose to live in.

clearly you dont have even a passing interest in history, or an appreciation of modern brits abroad. natives in the Med, France to name a couple get tired of the Brits taking over the place.

If I moved to Somalia I wouldn't think it was OK for my missus to go about in a bikini or for me to walk around in a "f*ck Allah" tee shirt so it's NOT ok for them to cover their wives in a black sheet and take deadly offence because someone draws a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head and to shoot the artist.

how ironic to ignore all the nuances of the issue, while claiming others are missing the complexities. not eating bacon and wearing a naqib is not offensive in this country so why a inverse comparison to being in Somalia?

 

[symyjym]

Do the ex pats want their own laws? do they want to behead and blow up the country they live in......do they hate the country that they have CHOSEN to live in?
Well?
Like the other religions and cultures in this country, which may "build their own communities" and cause no trouble and respect the country they live in, the ex pats seem to do the same in the countries that they choose to live in.

They are "sticking out like a sore thumb at the moment." because they are the ones that are causing trouble, not the other religions or cultures that live here.

Historically we have tried to promote western laws and democracy in other countries around the world as we have settled in them.

We clearly don’t behead people, but our governments bombed Iraq for the primary goal of making it a democratic country with westernised laws.

I don't agree with the Sharia law, and I hate anything to do with religion, but I am not surprised that different cultures want to take their laws with them because we have done so in the past.

I have a friendly Muslim neighbour who has one wife and daughter who goes to school, so I think it is wrong to over generalise Muslims, because you are saying that they all want to behead us.

 

[symyjym]

by and large British ex pats fall into two distict groups. Young working people who do their very best to " fit in" with the locals or retired folk who just want to sit in the sunshine until they peg it.

There's thousands of Brits living in, for example,Arab countries who would not dream of insisting on eating pork chops or getting pissed in public as they know that to do so would be
A. deeply offensive
B. Likely to result in prison

I'm sick of the comparison that Brits abroad behave badly or expect to be treated differently so migrants to the UK are entitled to do so. It's clearly a stupid answer to a very complex issue.

If I moved to Somalia I wouldn't think it was OK for my missus to go about in a bikini or for me to walk around in a "f*ck Allah" tee shirt so it's NOT ok for them to cover their wives in a black sheet and take deadly offence because someone draws a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head and to shoot the artist.

You clearly haven't thought this through.

To some degree pissed up people can be offensive and stupid, and some do end up in a cell overnight.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Historically we have tried to promote western laws and democracy in other countries around the world as we have settled in them.

We clearly don’t behead people, but our governments bombed Iraq for the primary goal of making it a democratic country with westernised laws.

I don't agree with the Sharia law, and I hate anything to do with religion, but I am not surprised that different cultures want to take their laws with them because we have done so in the past.

I have a friendly Muslim neighbour who has one wife and daughter who goes to school, so I think it is wrong to over generalise Muslims, because you are saying that they all want to behead us.

No, no I'm not. If you look back just one page on this thread I used an exemplar of a good friend of mine, a Bangladeshi Muslim, who has struggled with racism and cultural problems from his own community for him being integrated and from Brits for him being a "paki".

What I AM saying is that expats from the UK expect to be treated by their host countries as a subject of the law and cultural norms wherever they are in the world. Those who fail to do so are given little sympathy by us...for example those two dirty buggers who were shagging on the beach in Dubai.

Nowhere have I said that British muslims all want to behead us. That's clearly rubbish, but I have said that we have managed to develop several thousand jihadists who grew up in the UK but somehow outside it. Is that not your impression? If you believe otherwise you're either totally ignorant of current events or sadly misled.

In the days when we were Empire builders we did go around under the motto "make the world England" and that legacy has left us with a cultural burden that we are still struggling to shake off as hundreds of thousands of migrants from the old empire and protectorates queue up to come here to enjoy the kinds of freedoms only dreamt of in their own countries. We are no longer masters of a global land grab and our citizens overseas, in my experience, are humble and respectful of local traditions. I am NOT, by the way, talking about the red faced piss artists who can't be arsed to go further than Spain and who will sit in the bar in toremolinos all day eating roast dinners on Sunday and reading the Sun. They are not cultural avatars for the UK and everyone knows how embarrassing they are. I'm talking about professional people who work and live outside of Europe where cultural differences are far more marked.

I have travelled widely in my work and met Brits from Senegal to Saudi and they are a credit to us in the main.

My point was. If I went to seek a life in a country far away where culture was really different I would not expect to be able to walk about dressed in whatever I wanted, to say whatever I liked and treat my wife however I liked whether or not that jarred with everyone else who lived near me without anyone objecting.

If there is an issue with hundreds of thousands of Brits moving to Pakistan or Somalia and trying to build churches everywhere and walking about in g strings whilst eating fish and chips or holding demonstrations next to rememberance ceremonies for dead Muslim soldiers killed fighting the British where they burn the flag of their host country or calling for the establishment of C of E law I am not aware of it.

Even when we were Imperialists we respected the religions of the locals and never called for mandatory oaths of allegiance to Jesus.
Some on here are clearly struggling with comparators. Either that or they're just arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

clearly you dont have even a passing interest in history, or an appreciation of modern brits abroad. natives in the Med, France to name a couple get tired of the Brits taking over the place.



how ironic to ignore all the nuances of the issue, while claiming others are missing the complexities. not eating bacon and wearing a naqib is not offensive in this country so why a inverse comparison to being in Somalia?

It's not nuances I'm avoiding. Sometimes you have to draw a picture for particularly dense children in order to get your point across.

 

[symyjym]

No, no I'm not. If you look back just one page on this thread I used an exemplar of a good friend of mine, a Bangladeshi Muslim, who has struggled with racism and cultural problems from his own community for him being integrated and from Brits for him being a "paki".

What I AM saying is that expats from the UK expect to be treated by their host countries as a subject of the law and cultural norms wherever they are in the world. Those who fail to do so are given little sympathy by us...for example those two dirty buggers who were shagging on the beach in Dubai.

Nowhere have I said that British muslims all want to behead us. That's clearly rubbish, but I have said that we have managed to develop several thousand jihadists who grew up in the UK but somehow outside it. Is that not your impression? If you believe otherwise you're either totally ignorant of current events or sadly misled.

In the days when we were Empire builders we did go around under the motto "make the world England" and that legacy has left us with a cultural burden that we are still struggling to shake off as hundreds of thousands of migrants from the old empire and protectorates queue up to come here to enjoy the kinds of freedoms only dreamt of in their own countries. We are no longer masters of a global land grab and our citizens overseas, in my experience, are humble and respectful of local traditions. I am NOT, by the way, talking about the red faced piss artists who can't be arsed to go further than Spain and who will sit in the bar in toremolinos all day eating roast dinners on Sunday and reading the Sun. They are not cultural avatars for the UK and everyone knows how embarrassing they are. I'm talking about professional people who work and live outside of Europe where cultural differences are far more marked.

I have travelled widely in my work and met Brits from Senegal to Saudi and they are a credit to us in the main.

My point was. If I went to seek a life in a country far away where culture was really different I would not expect to be able to walk about dressed in whatever I wanted, to say whatever I liked and treat my wife however I liked whether or not that jarred with everyone else who lived near me without anyone objecting.

If there is an issue with hundreds of thousands of Brits moving to Pakistan or Somalia and trying to build churches everywhere and walking about in g strings whilst eating fish and chips or holding demonstrations next to rememberance ceremonies for dead Muslim soldiers killed fighting the British where they burn the flag of their host country or calling for the establishment of C of E law I am not aware of it.

Even when we were Imperialists we respected the religions of the locals and never called for mandatory oaths of allegiance to Jesus.
Some on here are clearly struggling with comparators. Either that or they're just arguing for the sake of it.

I read about your friend and I agree with what you said.

Then I got down to you saying "Nowhere have I said that British muslims all want to behead us."

Have I said that you said that?

I will read the rest later.

 

[Soulman]

Historically we have tried to promote western laws and democracy in other countries around the world as we have settled in them.

We clearly don’t behead people, but our governments bombed Iraq for the primary goal of making it a democratic country with westernised laws.

I don't agree with the Sharia law, and I hate anything to do with religion, but I am not surprised that different cultures want to take their laws with them because we have done so in the past.

I have a friendly Muslim neighbour who has one wife and daughter who goes to school, so I think it is wrong to over generalise Muslims, because you are saying that they all want to behead us.

Perhaps read the posts, mine 224, where i even put it in capital letters for you. In case do not look at my post it stated "It is about how SOME "once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"
Less haste more read.

 

[Soulman]

To some degree pissed up people can be offensive and stupid, and some do end up in a cell overnight.

Which if they did this in a Middle East country they would get a very severe sentence, which if they know the LAWS of said country would seem fair enough....any beheadings, groomings, FGM, stonings etc by ex pats in the ME recently?

 

[symyjym]

Perhaps read the posts, mine 224, where i even put it in capital letters for you. In case do not look at my post it stated "It is about how SOME "once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among"
Less haste more read.

224 is my post with a response to your comment 222 which contained 5 they’s in it and I cannot see the word SOME until a later comment. I don’t see anything in my 224 post that is so objectionable? Please feel free to point the problem out though.

All I have done in 224, is added a point to the discussion. You could however discuss this by yourself with your own points and views, but that is not how discussion works.

 

[Soulman]

224 is my post with a response to your comment 222 which contained 5 they’s in it and I cannot see the word SOME until a later comment. I don’t see anything in my 224 post that is so objectionable? Please feel free to point the problem out though.

All I have done in 224, is added a point to the discussion. You could however discuss this by yourself with your own points and views, but that is not how discussion works.

My mistake, my post was 225, where i stated "It is about how SOME "once they arrive here they seem to want to set themselves apart from the very people they have travelled across the world to live among" .
I must remember to state "some" more often.