[Misc] Religion - the Church of England - what future?

[dangull]

big bang theory has made predictions that have been found to be correct, i.e. cosmic background radiation. its been part refuted, reanalysed and restated to correct errors. its a solid working theory. multiverse isnt a theory, more an interpretation of quantum theory, and certainly not considered a fact. TV and popular science like it because of the implications for parallel universe. i perfer the Copenhagen interpretation with cats in a dead/not-dead state. either way the underlying quantum theory has led to discoveries.

religion on the other hand has led to no discovery or proof of anything.

The Big Bang may have been from divine intervention though, as normally a huge explosion from nothing usually requires a spark. The Universe does appear quite large when you see pictures of the Hubble telescope.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

The Big Bang may have been from divine intervention though, as normally a huge explosion from nothing usually requires a spark. The Universe does appear quite large when you see pictures of the Hubble telescope.

So who created God? That argument will never die - something had to be created from nothing at some point

 

[beorhthelm]

The Big Bang may have been from divine intervention though, as normally a huge explosion from nothing usually requires a spark. The Universe does appear quite large when you see pictures of the Hubble telescope.

it may have been a poop from a transdimensional fish that swam off into void. just because some specific thing doesnt have explaination does not mean we need to invoke a divine creator watching over us.

 

[Megazone]

it may have been a poop from a transdimensional fish that swam off into void. just because some specific thing doesnt have explaination does not mean we need to invoke a divine creator watching over us.

I've heard that theory before. It definitely has foundations.

 

[Bulldog]

I think Unicorns done it!

And I have as much solid evidence to back that up as the entire Christian church has for god.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The whole of the bible balances out the whole of the bible. God is outside of space and time, so therefore the days weren't necessarily 24 hour days. I do believe the bible is the word of God.

Fair enough.

 

[seagulls4ever]

something had to be created from nothing at some point

How can there be nothing? Or if our universe originated from something else, say another universe, and there has always been a universe in some form, then something doesn't have to be created from nothing, but how is that possible? Why does anything exist at all?

My brain has a meltdown every time I try and think about these kind of things.

Perhaps we're just one big experiment created by a higher being? To us they would seem like gods, so advanced and ahead of us they are, but they aren't god(s) in the way that religion portrays.

 

[The Sock of Poskett]

Our brains can only grasp things having a beginning and an end, because all we know is time and space.
Spirits living in a material world, maybe. Lumme, I'm quoting Sting ��.
But if you're OUTSIDE space and time, then eternity is kind of normal?

 

[Wilko]

Even if its completely wrong, and nobody knows. I reckon people believing in an after life will generally be happier during this life, than the atheist's depressing final vision of the end.

The complete opposite. If you believe that this is the only life then you realise how precious it is and make the most of every single day. I have found with a lot (not all) of religious people that they are constantly considering the afterlife, heaven, hell and how to get in rather than thinking about the now. You cannot change the past but you can fu*k up the present by worrying about the future.

 

[pastafarian]

I do believe the bible is the word of God.

Crikey,you believe god instructed Noah to build an ark for the animals and the flood story, and that the crew of the ark, from a time a few thousand years ago are the basis for populating the whole planet..........thats hardcore.

 

[Simon Morgan]

I count myself to be in a reasonably unique position as I work for the C of E but am not especially religious. There are a few things I've noticed in discourse surrounding religion these days.

1) It isn't fashionable to be religious. Quite a lot of atheists like to posit the idea that theists are a bit weird for having the audacity to have a different world view to them. I've been reading quite a lot of Yuval Noah Harrari recently so apologies for plagiarising him entirely, but: lots of things are made up - countries, the stock market, money, Google. It's only humanity's shared belief in them that makes them exist. Obviously religion is slightly different as it lacks the practical application that the others seem to have. Additionally, religion is often seen as the common denominator to the world's problems and conflicts (an argument that I don't really buy; homo sapiens has proved itself to be a very destructive race throughout history). It could be argued religion creates more problems than a car manufacturer. However, the real problem here is that a large part of society that bases itself entirely on common belief in shared myths happily mocks people for believing in a different myth. I see it as quite a strange argument, coming from people that are perhaps oblivious to the fact that most of what's around them is socially constructed.

2) This leads to a real disconnect between atheists and believers. Atheists make lots of assumptions about the nature of religious worship without ever experiencing it for themselves. There are a few notable exceptions, but I have to say most of the priests I have worked with are pretty standard people that just happen to have a different world view to me.

3) This isn't to say that the experience of worship isn't weird. Every day I have to say the Lord's Prayer (Our Father etc..) without paying any real attention to the words. On the odd occasion that I do, there is an overwhelming sense that I am part of some mad cult. My motivation for doing my work is for personal progression in a specialised field, but it is sometimes hard not to feel that the whole religious side of it is a big waste of time.

4) Religious people can be dicks. Non-religious people can be dicks. People can be dicks.

5) People who attack religion from a totally logical and scientific standpoint are, in my opinion at least, missing the point slightly. I think the majority of normal religious people use it as a moral code from which they can live their lives. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with every word of the Bible. It doesn't mean they want gays to burn in hell. The idea that religion provides repressive doctrines is actually a bit wide of the mark, as religion is in fact the influence behind much of current liberal Western ideology.

6) The predominantly liberal Western world we live in owes much of its ideological influences to religion. Humans weren't born programmed with the aim of being nice to each other. Various species of human routinely hunted and killed each other thousands of years ago. Modern civilisation was created by humanity's ability to organise itself in large groups due to common belief in myths, many of which were religions. All 'good' things that people do nowadays, be it altruistic, cooperative or just well-meaning, can be equated to the fundamental principles of religion.

I guess one of the points I'm making is that atheists love nothing more than distancing themselves from religious types in every single way. The truth is, they're not really so different.

 

[beorhthelm]

6) The predominantly liberal Western world we live in owes much of its ideological influences to religion. Humans weren't born programmed with the aim of being nice to each other. Various species of human routinely hunted and killed each other thousands of years ago. Modern civilisation was created by humanity's ability to organise itself in large groups due to common belief in myths, many of which were religions. All 'good' things that people do nowadays, be it altruistic, cooperative or just well-meaning, can be equated to the fundamental principles of religion.

such well put case until this. humans are programmed to be nice, within the family and small social groups and altruism is one of the most common traits across cultures. maybe true that doesnt scale well. purpose of religions are control and providing an anchor in a world. just because your faith has a message of be nice, that isnt applicable to all faiths and religion (recognising the gap between faith and religion). the trouble with religion and most followers, believing they have a monoploy on "good", ignoring all the bad of their religion and the outright contradiction of their opposition to all other religions. as pointed out before, the ten commandments takes the first 5 points to tell you how to obey God, before getting on to respect each other. those are the fundemental principles of Abrahamic religions, obey God and no other deity. hardly a message of cooperation and well-meaning.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

So last night I went to a religious show at a church, due to a family connection.

It’s the first time I’ve been to a church or similar for some time and it made me think.

What do the religious leaders need to do to encourage people to believe again? The Church of England to me seems totally out of touch with the majority of the country. Most of the people present were over 60. The vicar seemed like a good chap who was well intentioned but I just don’t get it.

I think most of us could get on board with the good and bad thing, like Star Wars, but all the talk of God is to me just unintelligent. I can’t believe in one great God. Life happens and clearly for most logical thinkers the existence of God can’t be a thing.

Flip this over though and the Muslim faith appears to be growing in this country. What are they doing that the Church of England isn’t?

Is it already too late to encourage people back to church? Is that it for the C of E?

more Muslims in the country, I think they'll be breeding us out the way it's going, GOT TO BE A CONCERN
regards
DR

 

[pastafarian]

1) It isn't fashionable to be religious. Quite a lot of atheists like to posit the idea that theists are a bit weird for having the audacity to have a different world view to them.

Are you sure that atheists consider theists weird because theists have the audacity to have a different view.?
Are you sure the real reason atheists find theists weird isn’t because theists believe in an imaginary man invented entity or find them weird because impressionable children are brainwashed and indoctrinated into a belief dependant on which flavour of religion their parents support or even their geographical location.?
Now that is really weird.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I'm still not convinced with the big bang theory, multiverse universes Ect that the Discovery channels broadcast as pretty much a fact.

It seems as absurd to me as some people here describing religion.

Etc etc etc not Ect for God's sake

 

[Bulldog]

OK, If god is outside space and time so are my bloody unicorns. That gives my assertion as much weight as the entire christian church. You can't just make stuff up because your argument is so stupid you can't defend it rationally! (Well I can because i'm not devoting my life to fictional unicorns)

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

OK, If god is outside space and time so are my bloody unicorns. That gives my assertion as much weight as the entire christian church. You can't just make stuff up because your argument is so stupid you can't defend it rationally! (Well I can because i'm not devoting my life to fictional unicorns)

What are their names?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

such well put case until this. humans are programmed to be nice, within the family and small social groups and altruism is one of the most common traits across cultures. maybe true that doesnt scale well. purpose of religions are control and providing an anchor in a world. just because your faith has a message of be nice, that isnt applicable to all faiths and religion (recognising the gap between faith and religion). the trouble with religion and most followers, believing they have a monoploy on "good", ignoring all the bad of their religion and the outright contradiction of their opposition to all other religions. as pointed out before, the ten commandments takes the first 5 points to tell you how to obey God, before getting on to respect each other. those are the fundemental principles of Abrahamic religions, obey God and no other deity. hardly a message of cooperation and well-meaning.

I would disagree that the purpose of all religions is control. That might be the purpose of some individuals or factions, bu not the whole picture. Far from it in fact. It is about valuing the individual, whatever they believe, and supporting people to be the best they can be.

And in my view you overestimate the propensity of Faiths to be in conflict. It would be a vary common approach in interfaith stuff that "there is more that unites us than divides us".

And the so called "Golden Rule", expressed in Christian terms as "Do unto others as you would have them do to you", is common to all the major faiths....... as well as to other places and philosophies such as the ancient Greek and Roman civilisations.

 

[beorhthelm]

I would disagree that the purpose of all religions is control. That might be the purpose of some individuals or factions, bu not the whole picture. Far from it in fact. It is about valuing the individual, whatever they believe, and supporting people to be the best they can be.

And in my view you overestimate the propensity of Faiths to be in conflict. It would be a vary common approach in interfaith stuff that "there is more that unites us than divides us".

And the so called "Golden Rule", expressed in Christian terms as "Do unto others as you would have them do to you", is common to all the major faiths....... as well as to other places and philosophies such as the ancient Greek and Roman civilisations.

i agree there is more to religion, a wider picture, but the foundations are control: read this text, believe these things, follow these rituals. top-down control of the group. it may have become dilute in the modern Christian churches, doesn't hide the fact its the original purpose. without control you have simple individual faith, and then people can start believing anything. there's a lot to be said for people simply following the teachings of someone. there would be less trouble if Jesus was seen as a philosopher, as an advocate of the golden rule that transcends across religions, faiths, societies and tribes.

 

[Wilko]

I count myself to be in a reasonably unique position as I work for the C of E but am not especially religious. There are a few things I've noticed in discourse surrounding religion these days.

1) It isn't fashionable to be religious. Quite a lot of atheists like to posit the idea that theists are a bit weird for having the audacity to have a different world view to them. I've been reading quite a lot of Yuval Noah Harrari recently so apologies for plagiarising him entirely, but: lots of things are made up - countries, the stock market, money, Google. It's only humanity's shared belief in them that makes them exist. Obviously religion is slightly different as it lacks the practical application that the others seem to have. Additionally, religion is often seen as the common denominator to the world's problems and conflicts (an argument that I don't really buy; homo sapiens has proved itself to be a very destructive race throughout history). It could be argued religion creates more problems than a car manufacturer. However, the real problem here is that a large part of society that bases itself entirely on common belief in shared myths happily mocks people for believing in a different myth. I see it as quite a strange argument, coming from people that are perhaps oblivious to the fact that most of what's around them is socially constructed.

2) This leads to a real disconnect between atheists and believers. Atheists make lots of assumptions about the nature of religious worship without ever experiencing it for themselves. There are a few notable exceptions, but I have to say most of the priests I have worked with are pretty standard people that just happen to have a different world view to me.

3) This isn't to say that the experience of worship isn't weird. Every day I have to say the Lord's Prayer (Our Father etc..) without paying any real attention to the words. On the odd occasion that I do, there is an overwhelming sense that I am part of some mad cult. My motivation for doing my work is for personal progression in a specialised field, but it is sometimes hard not to feel that the whole religious side of it is a big waste of time.

4) Religious people can be dicks. Non-religious people can be dicks. People can be dicks.

5) People who attack religion from a totally logical and scientific standpoint are, in my opinion at least, missing the point slightly. I think the majority of normal religious people use it as a moral code from which they can live their lives. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with every word of the Bible. It doesn't mean they want gays to burn in hell. The idea that religion provides repressive doctrines is actually a bit wide of the mark, as religion is in fact the influence behind much of current liberal Western ideology.

6) The predominantly liberal Western world we live in owes much of its ideological influences to religion. Humans weren't born programmed with the aim of being nice to each other. Various species of human routinely hunted and killed each other thousands of years ago. Modern civilisation was created by humanity's ability to organise itself in large groups due to common belief in myths, many of which were religions. All 'good' things that people do nowadays, be it altruistic, cooperative or just well-meaning, can be equated to the fundamental principles of religion.

I guess one of the points I'm making is that atheists love nothing more than distancing themselves from religious types in every single way. The truth is, they're not really so different.

Great post and you bring up a lot of really interesting points. I am guilty as an atheist of questioning the faith of the religious I admit and although this is not a full justification of why I do it I will explain my reasoning; I am absolutely staggered that anyone can believe the stories of religion in the world today and in particular very well educated and intelligent people such as the ones on this board, I just cannot get my head around it. I am not sure how a person could come to the conclusion the earth is around 6000 years old when every single shred of evidence goes against that, I do not understand how some people turn their nose up at evolution when the evidence is overwhelming, I do not get why some people ask for prayers when a group of people have just died in a tragic accident, who are you praying to? The one who just failed to save them? I do not get how an educated and rational Muslim can really believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse. (I am aware of course that not all of those with faith take these things literally, I was just taking some examples)

I am indeed guilty of pushing my questions on to those with faith and perhaps I should really just leave people to believe in what they want to but I am genuinely intrigued as to how someone comes to the rational conclusion that any of it is true. I should point out here that I was brought up as roman catholic and my education reflected this up to the age of 16, I turned my back on faith as soon as I could, not because I think it is evil but because I thought it was just not true.