Red Ivor told me..........

[Gwylan]

Changing leaders mid term isn't unusual:

1902 AJ Balfour (Con)
1908 AA Asquith (Lib) - Won in 1910
1916 Lloyd George (Lib) - Won in 1918
1923 Stanley Baldwin (Con) - Won in 1924 and 1935
1937 Neville Chamberlain (Con)
1940 Winston Churchill (Con) - Won in 1951
1963 Sir Alec Douglas Home (Con)
1976 Jim Callaghan (Lab)
1990 John Major (Con) - Won in 1992
2007 Gordon Brown (Lab)

On that count three Conservatives and two Labour have become PM without an electoral mandate without having won either before or after.

You missed out Anthony Eden in 1955 (although he did immediately call an election) and Harold McMillan in 1957 (I think).

The staggering thing is that it took until 1975 for a Conservative leader to be elected, until then the leader was chosen by a secret committee of party bigwigs.

 

[beorhthelm]

What about...

Im fairly sure tedebear was making the point Brown wasnt voted for as leader by his own party.

If Miliband or Johnson now became prime minister, most likely it would be ...

an appointment without going through the full process by which Labour Party elects its leader. would the party accept that? would they not turn them out at the party conference? as a internally unelected leader of a minority government, just what legitimacy would they have?

as for a new election soon under a differnt electoral system, an constitutional wonk on TV this morning reckoned it would take 3-4 years to put in place: the enabling legislation has to be passed; the referendum held (surely we'd have one on such a matter) with the preceding time to "educate" the nation on the subject and options; the new constituencies boundries or other issues need to be assessed and redrawn (though i cant see why this cant happen in parallel). all this assumes it would even pass the Commons, with many Tory and Labour back benchers potentially opposed.

 

[pasty]

I can't believe LibDems would do a deal with the Tories....if cards are played right, we'll have proportional representation in a few months, and the Conservative Party will be consigned to the scrap heap for a long time to come.

Had PR been in place for this election, the tories would still have won, so how do you work that out exactly?

 

[Super Steve Earle]

But really with;

The illegal war
The economic crisis
Record high petrol prices
One of the most unpopular PM's in living memory
And bigot gate



And the Tories still couldn't win.

Clearly enough of the electorate have concenrs over Cameron

Yet despite your own statements you'd still rather have Brown?

 

[beorhthelm]

Clearly enough of the electorate have concenrs over Cameron

but more concerns over Brown, no?

 

[BLOCK F]

Block F

All well and good but look at the voting figures.

65% of turnout 44 million electorate of which 10 million voted for the Tories.

So less than 25% of the total electorate voted for Cameron and co, not such a clear mandate after all?

Harty,say what you like ,but 24%Tory vote in 2010 is higher than the 22% who voted for Labour in 2005.These figures are for the entire electorate.
Of those who voted this time,the Tories got 36% of the vote,Labour 29% and Libdems 23%.
According to the Sunday Times,if Labour had got 36% of the vote,like the Tories did,they would have ended up with a majority of 64 seats!
Think on that you Labour supporters!

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I can't believe LibDems would do a deal with the Tories....if cards are played right, we'll have proportional representation in a few months, and the Conservative Party will be consigned to the scrap heap for a long time to come.

I'm not so sure that whoever Clegg gets into bed with, we are going to get PR.

Brown may promise a referendum, but before that comes it would have to be passed in the Commons before going to a referendum. All Tories would vote against this, and quite a few Labour too. Remember that it's not in The Labour Party's interest to have PR either, as it would mean an end to their chances of ever Governing alone again too.

 

[driller]

it is amazing really, we have a pm we did not vote in and now a pm we cannot vote out!!

 

[Harty]

Yet despite your own statements you'd still rather have Brown?

I don't want Brown, I think David Milliband would be good for the whole country, in fact the Steve Miller Band would be better than Gordon.

 

[BLOCK F]

I'd be happy to butt out, if you will agree to accept that none of Cameron's core policies have a cat in hell's chance of being implemented, because they will be voted down in parliament.

At least this round of wheeler-dealing gives the politicians a chance of achieving some sort of coherent government, built on compromise, maybe, but at least capable of delivering something.

Lord B. I don't agree with you re policies,but I do agree that in the present crisis,it is important that the Tories and Libdems forget their prejudices and get together to put forward a sensible plan to get us out the s--t!!

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

Clearly enough of the electorate have concerns over Cameron

Possibly the number of the electorate employed in non-jobs in the public sector like this one that turned up in my inbox today:

Job Title:HR Policy and Diversity Consultant
Reference 14733
Salary £29261 - £34424
Location(s) City of Westminster, Greater London, London
Department Department of Energy and Climate Change
Brief Description
Eligibility

Applications are invited from suitably skilled candidates supported by their line manager or countersigning officer.


This is a full time post but applications are also invited from those with part-time, job share or other flexible working arrangements.

Suitably qualified candidates at HEO level on a lateral transfer or Executive Officer level with the necessary recommendation from their countersigning officer on their suitability for promotion may apply. This post is also being advertised externally.

Terms of Appointment
Two year loan period with a view to permanency at the end of this period.

Introduction
The Department of Energy and Climate Change was created by the Prime Minister in October 2008, signalling the importance of the energy and climate change agendas individually, and of the close links between them. The creation of the Department is a highly significant and symbolic move which is already generating great interest both in the UK and internationally.


Working Arrangement Full time,Part time,Job share
Closing Date 04 June 2010
More Information

Whoever gets in, this sort of nonsense needs sorting out, but I just can't see a left wing coalition doing it. The ratio of HR staff to others in the public sector is about 1:50. In the private sector, it is 1:100. That ratio cannot be sustained.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I never cease to be amazed by some of the Labour supporting members of this board.....breathtaking ability to ignore facts and collectively put heads in sand!
Do you really believe that Labour have genuinely earned the chance to stay in charge of this country for a minute longer, regardless of whether or not a 'deal' could be cobbled together with other parties?
For crying out loud,the Conservatives got more seats and more votes than Labour,so butt out!

Absolutely. Bad losers both Labour and their supporters. This adding together of both the Labour and Lib Dem votes and then saying that is the vote AGAINST the Tories is daft. Using that logic adding the Tory and Lib Dem votes together shows the vote AGAINST Labour and that figure is much higher. People generally vote for parties not against them - otherwise you would need multiple votes to be able to vote against Labour, the Lib Dems, the BNP etc etc.

If the NoTW is to believed then Brown is an inmature, power hungry twat. Given his parties constant "be scared of the Tories" election messages, very negative, it;s obvious they have run out of ideas and certainly don't deserve power.

On the other hand CMD and Clegg appear to be professional and level headed - hopefully they can come to an agreement and show the childish and spiteful Labour party the door.

 

[Bluejuice]

If Clegg gets into bed with the Tories all hell will break loose.

For all his supposed success at winning over new fans as a result of the leaders debates Clegg will alienate the lot of them if he does strike up a deal with the Conservatives.

I really don't see how a deal could be worked out and I would have thought the most likely outcome would be the mooted Lib-Lab pact with a new Labour leader taking over from Brown which Clegg could claim was a mandatory condition he imposed.

I am getting fed up with all this nonsense about Brown "squatting" in Number 10 and not being an elected leader though. It's absolute tosh and just makes people look stupid as they clearly don't understand the British electoral system. Brown WAS elected, both as leader of the Labour party by its members AND as MP for Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath (this time taking a not insignificant 64.5% of the vote). The British public don't have a vote on which individual leads the country and never have done.

As Harty points out, considering the various failings of the Labour government over recent years the fact that Cameron's Conservatives couldn't take advantage and win a majority suggests that they really don't deserve to run the country. There simply aren't enough people who have faith in them to do a job.

Epic Cameron FAIL. He will stand down as leader of the Conservatives, they'll fall into further disarray and we'll have to wait even longer for some serious opposition

 

[SussexHoop]

But really with;

The illegal war
The economic crisis
Record high petrol prices
One of the most unpopular PM's in living memory
And bigot gate



And the Tories still couldn't win.

Clearly enough of the electorate have concerns over Cameron

I saw an interview with iirc Adam Boulton who suggested CMD's big mistake was agreeing to 3-way election debates as this was seen to include the Lib Dems as major players in the election, which in reality they weren't before the debates. Head to head against Brown, Boulton thinks we'd have a Conservative government with a majority.

Whilst less than 25% of the electorate voted for Cameron, Labour & the Lib Dems got even less - that's just how it works in this country ... at the moment. Under the current system, the Tories were according to the Times, 16,000 votes away from a majority.

Perhaps the worrying statistic is that the largest group were those that chose not to vote for whatever reason.

 

[johnny jigsaw]

I think it's time for a benign military dictatorship, you know where you stand with those. We'll get one of those nice generals in, one with a lovely big twirly moustache and lots of shiney medals and everything will be ship shape and Bristol-fashion in no time at all, you'll see.

 

[Harty]

I think it's time for a benign military dictatorship, you know where you stand with those. We'll get one of those nice generals in, one with a lovely big twirly moustache and lots of shiney medals and everything will be ship shape and Bristol-fashion in no time at all, you'll see.

At least your general might do something about all the chavs and spongers

 

[Bluejuice]

I think it's time for a benign military dictatorship, you know where you stand with those. We'll get one of those nice generals in, one with a lovely big twirly moustache and lots of shiney medals and everything will be ship shape and Bristol-fashion in no time at all, you'll see.

 

[Bluejuice]

Bloody good blog on the matter, by Mr Stephen Fry, here:

Stalemate: PR and PR, Ice Cream, Bananas and Fudge The New Adventures of Stephen Fry

 

[tedebear]

What about Anthony Eden, Harold Macmillan, Alec Douglas-Home, John Major?

All became Tory Prime Ministers simply by a decision of the Conservative Party to change the party leadership. Each of them subsequently called a general election. Douglas-Home lost his election, the others won theirs.

Likewise Brown. He's just lost his.

If Miliband or Johnson now became prime minister, most likely it would be as a result of a deal with the LibDems that had, as a key part of the deal, an agreement that an election would be held as soon as a new, fairer electoral system had been introduced.

I think you missed my point. I'm not voting on the past, I'm voting on right now. Gordon Brown right now is not as popular as David Cameron, say what you want but thats the way the votes fell. More of the voting public voted Tory than Labour - shuffle your deck chairs as you want. If the Tories don't form the majority of the government which will be in place shortly then we must have reform.

I think also you'd be suprised to realize that some people DO vote for a Prime Minister and not a party. Whilst their vote is technically for the party, the face of that party can command a return, good or bad.

 

[beorhthelm]

I am getting fed up with all this nonsense about Brown "squatting" in Number 10 and not being an elected leader though. It's absolute tosh and just makes people look stupid as they clearly don't understand the British electoral system.

well as you cast a vote illegally, so your opinion on the system is void.