[Albion] Red Card

[worthingseagull123]

Both should have gone.

The stamping was not good.

 

[pb21]

Fair enough. I can’t argue against this but I obviously disagree; it boils down to different peoples interpretation.

Is that on the basis that the headbut wasn't aggressive enough to be considered to be brutal or excessive?

 

[Seasider78]

That footage is from the blind side and looks far worse. The clip is saw is from the other side and you could see, he brushed his head against Ali’s in a downward motion, it wasn’t a forward butt.

He would have got a card for violent conduct. Here’s the law

Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
Violent conduct
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.


In my opinion the force was negligible so no red. The debate centres on whether you feel it was, or wasn’t, negligible and I appreciate this is subjective.

Also, as an aide, intent doesn’t play any part in the laws.

I don’t want to see reds for those kind of incidents but the facts are that is EXACTLY what refs have been dishing out reds for consistently all season. Look at Duffy and Richarlison as two recent examples.

All we want is consistency in the application of the laws so why are those laws you quote not being applied in identical circumstances by officials? The fact VAR was used for yesterday’s makes it even more laughable

 

[darkwolf666]

Ah. Good point. In that case it’s the first paragraph which is applicable. No red as Walker didn’t use excessive force or brutality in my opinion.

So, in your understanding, if you took a big swing at someone, but missed, that would be ok... You've said intent isn't mentioned, so the lack of contact would mean no offence!!!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Is that on the basis that the headbut wasn't aggressive enough to be considered to be brutal or excessive?

Yes. In my opinion

 

[Icy Gull]

Duffy v Palace, AJ should have gone down like a sack of spuds..[/QUOTE

Might have made the difference but we don’t like cheats in the stripes, kudos to him for not going to ground clutching his face. **** VAR and **** the ref and his VAR assistant.

 

[Bodian]

I don’t want to see reds for those kind of incidents but the facts are that is EXACTLY what refs have been dishing out reds for consistently all season. Look at Duffy and Richarlison as too recent examples.

All we want is consistency in the application of the laws so why are those laws you quote not being applied in identical circumstances by officials? The fact VAR was used for yesterday’s makes it even more laughable

Yes - I agree. Handbags like that shouldn't warrant a red card, and I think it would have lessened the game if he had gone. But, as you rightly point out, it's the inconsistency that is at issue. Of course, it could be that the VAR decision yesterday is the one that refs now take on board as being acceptable - and sending offs such as Duffy's won't happen in the future?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So, in your understanding, if you took a big swing at someone, but missed, that would be ok... You've said intent isn't mentioned, so the lack of contact would mean no offence!!!

No. The law I quoted explicitly states regardless of contact. In my mind it’s to do with merely the use of excessive/brutal force..... period.

 

[drew]

In my opinion the force was negligible. Had there been a forward component to the motion I’d agree with you. Then it would have been a butt as opposed to a brush. But there wasn’t from the angle I saw.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. He put his face in AJs and pushed forward and down. The only reason it wasn't a butt was because they were already in contact!!

 

[seagulls4ever]

I feel cheated. Having an extra man would have made an upset more realistic but they bottled it. A few headlines this week and then it'll forever be forgotten about.

 

[Bozza]

If this incident had been the other way round, it’s hard to imagine a clued-up City player not going down clutching his face and a red card subsequently being shown to our player.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Bullshit. You can not move your head like that without a forward component to the motion that is not how necks move.

Either way, I still do not think it was “excessive” or “brutal” force.

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

Not sure if the TC cameras picked it up but there was also a definite kick by Walker on Ali J during the altercation. My group thought that was what the VAR for as we didn't really see the head brush.

 

[Acker79]

Either way, I still do not think it was “excessive” or “brutal” force.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Excessive; more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.

How much 'head-into-face' force is necessary, normal or desirable? How much did Walker use?

To me the answer to that first question is 'none'. The answer to the second is 'more than none'.

 

[Hastings gull]

Why did you make this post? I stated my case quite reasonably and politely. Why be so snide?

While the thread is fascinating and well put, as you say, I always find it amazing on NSC that those who are quite happy to make (in this case) snide comments about others, then feel so offended when the chickens come home to roost.

 

[teammelli]

No. The law I quoted explicitly states regardless of contact. In my mind it’s to do with merely the use of excessive/brutal force..... period.

So if it was not a swing of a fist but less “brutal” like maybe a slap or maybe a clawing scratch then it’s ok? A red for a knee to the groin but a yellow for an elbow to the neck? A red for stamping on a players head but a yellow for stamping on the hand?

Give me a break, the laws are clear and violent conduct outside of the realm of the game is awarded with expulsion. It would have 100% been a red card, no exceptions, if Brighton had done it. When a smaller team gets the punishment, the bigger teams should get it too. These discrepancies will exist as long as the league has the interest of $$$. How big will the market be for Brighton in the FA cup final, rather than Man City? Or smaller teams progressing at the World Cup instead of a team with a global superstar like CR7 or Messi? This is not a new problem.

 

[Wozza]

If this incident had been the other way round, it’s hard to imagine a clued-up City player not going down clutching his face and a red card subsequently being shown to our player.

Indeed. I'm pretty annoyed with AJ's honesty. Got to play the game!

In fact, while I'm here.... GM was too slow to react for his big chance. 1/2 sec quicker and it's a goal (or pen).

And... why did Dunk let the ball past for the goal?

Grumble grumble.

 

[teammelli]

If this incident had been the other way round, it’s hard to imagine a clued-up City player not going down clutching his face and a red card subsequently being shown to our player.

This.

Bullshit. You can not move your head like that without a forward component to the motion that is not how necks move.

And this.

Excessive; more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.

How much 'head-into-face' force is necessary, normal or desirable? How much did Walker use?

To me the answer to that first question is 'none'. The answer to the second is 'more than none'.

And most importantly this.

 

[Hastings gull]

If this incident had been the other way round, it’s hard to imagine a clued-up City player not going down clutching his face and a red card subsequently being shown to our player.

Yes, I tend to agree with you here, and it does throw up the old question of whether the top 6 do subconsciously get better treatment from the officials. In the past I have never really subscribed to that point of view but since our now two seasons in the PL I am not so sure.

 

[Triggaaar]

And... why did Dunk let the ball past for the goal?

Because he was Duffy?