[Albion] RDZ in

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yes, keep him. I don’t think his current style of football is good enough to get him in a Champions League side for another season tbh and I would be surprised if he left for anything less. De Zerbi ball‘ is exciting and has got us so far but there are systemic weaknesses in its DNA imo.

- so I would like him to stay and develop with us further in some key areas:

• De Zerbi’s style of football concedes too many goals still and until he works out how to protect our inside channels from counter attacks when our full backs play a high press on the touchlines (a key component of us playing out from the back) , leaving so much space behind us, we will keep conceding too many goals. This was a problem at Sassuolo too and Shakhtar.

• Another key aspect of RDZ’s DNA is the deep double pivot in our build up - losing Caceido and Mackie together was a blow that I think he felt deeply, it must have been like pulling the rug from under him. I would love RDZ to have time to rebuild that strength with either Baleba or getting in someone new as the double pivot player that sits back if the other moves out to support a high press or regain in midfield (Gilmour’s role now) - when the oppo plays round that high press and cuts inside to the space the double pivot has vacated. Gilmour, despite being technically excellent, is the not player for that deep pivot defensive position that Caciedo held, he‘s the one half of the DP that breaks forward, the position traditionally occupied by Mackie so RDZ is still having to adapt his system to accommodate the loss of Caceido and find a player that can defend the space behind the ball when we press forward.

• RDZ‘s overloads central attacking areas (with his inverted wingers cutting inside to support the strikers and midfielders) which is his preferred line of attack. However, it is a problem when we retain long periods of possession in the oppo half, as teams then have time to drop into a low block - it is our possession based style of football IMO that push teams back into a low block, not a proactive “sussed” tactic on their part as a way of trying to beat us, contrary to what some folk seem to suggest. The only way through that once they do that, is intricate, fast, short passes and stretching the block - both Ferguson, Pedro and Adingra need to improve in these areas - Facu I think gets it as does Welbeck. I would like to see RDZ have time to improve players in these areas because if he can crack the vulnerabilities in a fullback system that leaves us open in the left and right channels behind the ball (and in central back areas if the double pivot pushes forward) and how to stop teams dropping into a low block in response to long periods in possession when pressing high, I think he could crack it at Brighton.

So what you analysis suggests is:

1. We need better players to do that
2. That would require better players, and
3. If we had better players then the third weakness would be less a problem.

I think you're right.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not sure anybody wants him out or they are barking if they do

Fido and Lassie have been posting on other threads.

 

[Seagull58]

So what you analysis suggests is:

1. We need better players to do that
2. That would require better players, and
3. If we had better players then the third weakness would be less a problem.

I think you're right.

Mitoma, Estupinian, March, Adingra, Lamptey, Joao Pedro and even Fati are good enough to execute the "lightning" fast attacks to beat the low block. Baleba may, in time, be the double pivot needed to complement Gilmour and Gross.
Nearly all those players have been injured for long periods this season and some still are.
We don't need to dump those players and buy new ones. We need patience.

 

[hart's shirt]

If anyone wants swaying to out I do have in my possession a video of RDZ at a Coldplay concert...

Don't panic.

We're in no danger of parachutes payments.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Mitoma, Estupinian, March, Adingra, Lamptey, Joao Pedro and even Fati are good enough to execute the "lightning" fast attacks to beat the low block. Baleba may, in time, be the double pivot needed to complement Gilmour and Gross.
Nearly all those players have been injured for long periods this season and some still are.
We don't need to dump those players and buy new ones. We need patience.

No, I agree with you 110%.

It is obvious some of our results have been disappointing because we have not had the available players on the day that may have made a difference.

I think the reason people like me have been pissed of with certain posters lately isn't because we think RDZ is infallible or irreplaceable, it is because the sight of people shitting the bed, in fact shitting other peoples' beds, every time we fail to crush, kill and destroy a team 5-0, is all a bit . . . sad. And tedious.

They express their opinion as they are entitled.

And I express mine.

 

[Zeberdi]

So what you analysis suggests is:

1. We need better players to do that
2. That would require better players, and
3. If we had better players then the third weakness would be less a problem.

I think you're right.

Come on Harry, you know that is not what I said at all even remotely so it is a bit disingenuous to remessage my post like that.

I think the reason people like me have been pissed of with certain posters lately isn't because we think RDZ is infallible or irreplaceable, it is because the sight of people shitting the bed, in fact shitting other peoples' beds, every time we fail to crush, kill and destroy a team 5-0, is all a bit . . . sad. And tedious.

They express their opinion as they are entitled.

You sound a little pissed off with what I wrote for some reason and dismissed my post as a siren call to replace our existing players or manager with ‘better’ ones which wasn’t what I was saying at all - there’s no shitting anywhere going on here, all I was doing was pointing out some areas in the way we play that I personally feel think can be improved with the current manager and squad.

The 3 areas I pointed out (with possibly the exception of the defensive double pivot player because Baleba isn’t there yet and might not get there), can all be improved upon with the existing squad - We have more than enough talent in the team already. There’s no doubt de Zerbi ball requires a skill level that yes, may be toward the upper limits of our some of youngest squad members to currently to execute the way RDZ wants (and even some of our oldest ones) but it is a process of learning. There is also no doubt in my mind that our rate of conceding goals isn’t just about defending better but may require a modification of the De Zerbi FB system. Likewise, facing low blocks so often might require us to modify how many passes we are making in the opposition half to try an avoid scenarios that allow teams time to do that so easily in the first place and make faster more direct attacks instead. Again, we have the players perfectly able to do that with a little tactical improvement.

In the meantime, the many youngsters in the team need patience and time to build confidence, those coming back from injuries need time and the manager needs time, and probably several more transfer windows to gradually develop the team within the financial sustainability framework of the Club so we increase its depth. The impact of so many injuries injury impacts on everyone too, not just players injured but those players having to play more football than they would otherwise in order to cover for them and probably on the mental well being of the manager too (and on the fans) - but this season’s level of injury to key players has been both unprecedented and nobody could have predicted it .

That’s just my opinion - I’m not asking anyone to agree with it.

 

[phoenix]

It’s a mark of how we think as a society that viewpoints always have to be categorized by some form of polarity. To hold two opposing views and argue for both is no longer seen as a strength. But I see many posters doing just that, which is encouraging.

RDZ has held a godlike status, fueled by some results, a style of play that is refreshing and statistically dominant when it comes to possession, a media whose obsession is with creating heroes ready for the slaughter, and an attractive and abrasive Latin personality. However, he’s fallible, and we’ve seen those weaknesses long before the media.

Weaknesses do not make a manager a liability though. It may be a cliche but every challenge is an opportunity, and now that teams have worked out how to play against (and exploit) our possession-based play and attempts at the higher press, we need to change. What we are not yet seeing is a change in play or a depth of play. For example, with an Everton or Fulham we perhaps need to think about playing without the ball a bit more. We need to draw them out. And we need our transition play to be lightening fast. I don’t see that happening.

Now, this might not be the right thing to do, but we do need another way of combatting what opponents do. That’s why we have brilliant coaches like RDZ. But he’s not responded yet. Perhaps he feels the players he has only have discipline and intelligence enough to work in one way (note: he will understandably never denigrate his players in public.) Either way, now is the time he will earn his money.

This is what these threads are about. How does our RDZ up or change the game, or see us through this. At the moment we’re “just a sh1t Man City” to coin a phrase. We’ll get there. He’ll get there.

So your implying he's shitehouse.

 

[phoenix]

So what you analysis suggests is:

1. We need better players to do that
2. That would require better players, and
3. If we had better players then the third weakness would be less a problem.

I think you're right.

To be fair i enjoyed the ist part of the post you are quoting and will definately read the rest on my next day off !

 

[phoenix]

summer to avoid a Poyet occurring.

See all the likes you got for this comment, there's lies your answer

 

[Zeberdi]

To be fair i enjoyed the ist part of the post you are quoting and will definately read the rest on my next day off !

Yeah - it was a long post Sorry - had been mulling it all around for a while. But honestly it was just a reaction to so much hyperbole and negativity running through so many post match threads yesterday - I love the Club, love De Zerbi and every single one of our lads - I think NSC on match days probably gets to me more than I care to admit when we lose - the amount of vitriol does kind of add a lot of piss to the fireworks already dampened by a disappointing result and I feel like pushing back on it at times - I think I put most of them on ignore in the end. Not saying people don’t have a right to vent and criticise of course but Harry’s right, it does shit in everyone else’s bed too..

 

[phoenix]

Yeah - it was a long post Sorry - had been mulling it all around for a while. But honestly it was just a reaction to so much hyperbole and negativity running through so many post match threads yesterday - I love the Club, love De Zerbi and every single one of our lads - I think NSC on match days probably gets to me more than I care to admit when we lose - the amount of vitriol does kind of add a lot of piss to the fireworks already dampened by a disappointing result and I feel like pushing back on it at times - I think I put most of them on ignore in the end. Not saying people don’t have a right to vent and criticise of course but Harry’s right, it does shit in everyone else’s bed too..

Don't be sorry i'm only pulling your leg. It's kinda good reading a well thought out post with interesting stats . I honestly enjoy your posts

 

[US Seagull]

Yes, keep him. I don’t think his current style of football is good enough to get him in a Champions League side for another season tbh and I would be surprised if he left for anything less. De Zerbi ball‘ is exciting and has got us so far but there are systemic weaknesses in its DNA imo.

- so I would like him to stay and develop with us further in some key areas:

• De Zerbi’s style of football concedes too many goals still and until he works out how to protect our inside channels from counter attacks when our full backs play a high press on the touchlines (a key component of us playing out from the back) , leaving so much space behind us, we will keep conceding too many goals. This was a problem at Sassuolo too and Shakhtar.

• Another key aspect of RDZ’s DNA is the deep double pivot in our build up - losing Caceido and Mackie together was a blow that I think he felt deeply, it must have been like pulling the rug from under him. I would love RDZ to have time to rebuild that strength with either Baleba or getting in someone new as the double pivot player that sits back if the other moves out to support a high press or regain in midfield (Gilmour’s role now) - when the oppo plays round that high press and cuts inside to the space the double pivot has vacated. Gilmour, despite being technically excellent, is the not player for that deep pivot defensive position that Caciedo held, he‘s the one half of the DP that breaks forward, the position traditionally occupied by Mackie so RDZ is still having to adapt his system to accommodate the loss of Caceido and find a player that can defend the space behind the ball when we press forward.

• RDZ‘s overloads central attacking areas (with his inverted wingers cutting inside to support the strikers and midfielders) which is his preferred line of attack. However, it is a problem when we retain long periods of possession in the oppo half, as teams then have time to drop into a low block - it is our possession based style of football IMO that push teams back into a low block, not a proactive “sussed” tactic on their part as a way of trying to beat us, contrary to what some folk seem to suggest. The only way through that once they do that, is intricate, fast, short passes and stretching the block - both Ferguson, Pedro and Adingra need to improve in these areas - Facu I think gets it as does Welbeck. I would like to see RDZ have time to improve players in these areas because if he can crack the vulnerabilities in a fullback system that leaves us open in the left and right channels behind the ball (and in central back areas if the double pivot pushes forward) and how to stop teams dropping into a low block in response to long periods in possession when pressing high, I think he could crack it at Brighton.

Well, that's kinda the thing. I think mangers fit on a continuum from idealist to pragmatist. You either look at the players you have and try to find a system that plays to their strengths (pragmatic) or you have a system you want to play and try to make the players fit, or find ones that do (idealistic). There are pros and cons to both approaches.

RDZ is clearly on the idealistic end of the spectrum. And this becomes a problem when he doesn't have the players he wants (due to injury or failure in the transfer market) and I think that's where we are right now. RDZ needs to be a bit more pragmatic at the moment while we are missing key players, but that's not really his thing. He doesn't want to play hoof ball regardless of whether or not that best fits the players available and the weaknesses of the opponent (and I'm not saying it is, just giving an example of something i don't think he'd ever do). He'll stick to his vision regardless of whether or not it's working.

Bloom, on the other hand, I feel is very pragmatic. Which you'd expect from a professional gambler. He'll work to get the most from what he has. I think this causes some tension between the two of them.

What's the solution? I don't know. Bloom isn't going to shower RDZ with gifts of premier league ready players, so RDZ will have to learn to make do or else move on.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Come on Harry, you know that is not what I said at all even remotely so it is a bit disingenuous to remessage my post like that.

You sound a little pissed off with what I wrote for some reason and dismissed my post as a siren call to replace our existing players or manager with ‘better’ ones which wasn’t what I was saying at all - there’s no shitting anywhere going on here, all I was doing was pointing out some areas in the way we play that I personally feel think can be improved with the current manager and squad.

The 3 areas I pointed out (with possibly the exception of the defensive double pivot player because Baleba isn’t there yet and might not get there), can all be improved upon with the existing squad - We have more than enough talent in the team already. There’s no doubt de Zerbi ball requires a skill level that yes, may be toward the upper limits of our some of youngest squad members to currently to execute the way RDZ wants (and even some of our oldest ones) but it is a process of learning. There is also no doubt in my mind that our rate of conceding goals isn’t just about defending better but may require a modification of the De Zerbi FB system. Likewise, facing low blocks so often might require us to modify how many passes we are making in the opposition half to try an avoid scenarios that allow teams time to do that so easily in the first place and make faster more direct attacks instead. Again, we have the players perfectly able to do that with a little tactical improvement.

In the meantime, the many youngsters in the team need patience and time to build confidence, those coming back from injuries need time and the manager needs time, and probably several more transfer windows to gradually develop the team within the financial sustainability framework of the Club so we increase its depth. The impact of so many injuries injury impacts on everyone too, not just players injured but those players having to play more football than they would otherwise in order to cover for them and probably on the mental well being of the manager too (and on the fans) - but this season’s level of injury to key players has been both unprecedented and nobody could have predicted it .

That’s just my opinion - I’m not asking anyone to agree with it.

I have never been pissed off with anything you have written. My three 'points' were a tongue in cheek way of saying I agree with you completely.

You great soft shite.

 

[Machiavelli]

It’s a mark of how we think as a society that viewpoints always have to be categorized by some form of polarity. To hold two opposing views and argue for both is no longer seen as a strength. But I see many posters doing just that, which is encouraging.

RDZ has held a godlike status, fueled by some results, a style of play that is refreshing and statistically dominant when it comes to possession, a media whose obsession is with creating heroes ready for the slaughter, and an attractive and abrasive Latin personality. However, he’s fallible, and we’ve seen those weaknesses long before the media.

Weaknesses do not make a manager a liability though. It may be a cliche but every challenge is an opportunity, and now that teams have worked out how to play against (and exploit) our possession-based play and attempts at the higher press, we need to change. What we are not yet seeing is a change in play or a depth of play. For example, with an Everton or Fulham we perhaps need to think about playing without the ball a bit more. We need to draw them out. And we need our transition play to be lightening fast. I don’t see that happening.

Now, this might not be the right thing to do, but we do need another way of combatting what opponents do. That’s why we have brilliant coaches like RDZ. But he’s not responded yet. Perhaps he feels the players he has only have discipline and intelligence enough to work in one way (note: he will understandably never denigrate his players in public.) Either way, now is the time he will earn his money.

This is what these threads are about. How does our RDZ up or change the game, or see us through this. At the moment we’re “just a sh1t Man City” to coin a phrase. We’ll get there. He’ll get there.

That would constitute a contradiction and, as a consequence, would not have been considered a strength.

 

[Zeberdi]

That would constitute a contradiction and, as a consequence, would not have been considered a strength.

Life is a paradox.

 

[phoenix]

Well, that's kinda the thing. I think mangers fit on a continuum from idealist to pragmatist. You either look at the players you have and try to find a system that plays to their strengths (pragmatic) or you have a system you want to play and try to make the players fit, or find ones that do (idealistic). There are pros and cons to both approaches.

RDZ is clearly on the idealistic end of the spectrum. And this becomes a problem when he doesn't have the players he wants (due to injury or failure in the transfer market) and I think that's where we are right now. RDZ needs to be a bit more pragmatic at the moment while we are missing key players, but that's not really his thing. He doesn't want to play hoof ball regardless of whether or not that best fits the players available and the weaknesses of the opponent (and I'm not saying it is, just giving an example of something i don't think he'd ever do). He'll stick to his vision regardless of whether or not it's working.

Bloom, on the other hand, I feel is very pragmatic. Which you'd expect from a professional gambler. He'll work to get the most from what he has. I think this causes some tension between the two of them.

What's the solution? I don't know. Bloom isn't going to shower RDZ with gifts of premier league ready players, so RDZ will have to learn to make do or else move on.

I have never been pissed off with anything you have written. My three 'points' were a tongue in cheek way of saying I agree with you completely.

You great soft shite.

Ha yes 3 points was that deliberate Hazza your'e a genius happy days.

 

[tstanbur]

Yeah - it was a long post Sorry - had been mulling it all around for a while. But honestly it was just a reaction to so much hyperbole and negativity running through so many post match threads yesterday - I love the Club, love De Zerbi and every single one of our lads - I think NSC on match days probably gets to me more than I care to admit when we lose - the amount of vitriol does kind of add a lot of piss to the fireworks already dampened by a disappointing result and I feel like pushing back on it at times - I think I put most of them on ignore in the end. Not saying people don’t have a right to vent and criticise of course but Harry’s right, it does shit in everyone else’s bed too..

But last week you were the one being negative after a draw against Everton when the majority were happy that we rescued a point very late with 10 men.

 

[phoenix]

Ha yes 3 points was that deliberate Hazza your'e a genius happy days.

Thanks Hazza i need your support atm i'm under seige for telling the truth Much appriciated

 

[Zeberdi]

But last week you were the one being negative after a draw against Everton when the majority were happy that we rescued a point very late with 10 men.

Last week all I said was in one very short, one sentence post on the match thread, I wasn’t excited about us equalising because it wasn’t enough to lift me out of a personal slump and the goal had come too late for us to pull back a win unfortunately - I then further explained after getting a pile on over a remark that was more to do with my state of mind than anything else, that it would have taken a lot for me to get excited last week as I had spent most of it in hospital and was actually very ill when I posted and personally needed a win. I also followed up that post clarifying how much I loved the team and Dunkie. That is very different to the plethora of negative posts and numerous threads claiming the sky was falling on and attacking individuals to do with the club - I certainly didn’t criticise any players, suggest RDZ should go, that it was all his fault or pull the squad, executive or match effort apart and certainly made no reference to the season‘s performance or the rest of the season.

One post from me not being excited about a result is very different from the flood of innuendo and speculation or rumours that hit NSC over the weekend - people have a right to express an opinion but others certainly found all the negativity overwhelming.

Nice try though.

 

[JetsetJimbo]

Stayed away from this site over the weekend because the negativity was really getting me down. I feel like some people are interpreting every comment and every interview and every screenshot in the worst light possible just so they can have the dubious pleasure of saying "I told you so" when things eventually *do* go wrong.

Because some day they will do. Predicting that a relationship between a manager, a club, and a fanbase will eventually go tits up isn't any evidence of foresight at all, because that's what happens with the vast majority of relationships between a manager, a club, and a fanbase. It's like pointing at a fresh-faced politician and predicting their career will end in disappointment and/or disgrace. Of course it will, eventually.

But I don't think we're there yet with RDZ.