Radicalisation in Brighton

[alfredmizen]

You still unable to read? I was explaining how people especially young mums with children wouldn't go there.

But of course you knew that... Anyway next time I will ask them to call you as you clearly see yourself and the intrepid law enforcer

Actually you weren't , this is what you originally posted

''I still live on Saltdean and you weren't wrong. The park was a no go area when those boys were down there.''

I'm pretty sure if you'd meant young mums etc you'd have put it, but you didn't did you ?

 

[ROSM]

Actually you weren't , this is what you originally posted

''I still live on Saltdean and you weren't wrong. The park was a no go area when those boys were down there.''

I'm pretty sure if you'd meant young mums etc you'd have put it, but you didn't did you ?

It's a park, parks are largely frequented by children and parents....and dog walkers too but as I wasn't a dog owner at the time I didn't reference that.

The additional information that you and big gully clearly needed to stifle your hilarity was added less than 15 mins later.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Good to see we're nailing the important issue here.

 

[mona]

The question of what motivates young British men and women to leave their homes and join jihadist groups fighting in Syria has been the subject of heated public debate. The prevailing orthodoxy cites Islamist ideology as the principal driver – and it is obviously a necessary element, if not always the predominant motivation. What has been less understood is the process by which young people grow alienated with their own country, and seek the validation of their identity in a faraway civil war...Their journey from the south coast to Syria cannot be reduced to a single factor, but it involves racist abuse, allegations of police neglect, and the collective failure of numerous authorities – both those charged with protecting vulnerable young people, and those charged with preventing radicalisation.

Surely a significant factor is the thrill of being able to kill.

 

[spring hall convert]

13 pages of (quite correctly) stating the Guardian has an agenda (like every other source of news in the world) and someone shares an Express link. It's beyond parody.

 

[alfredmizen]

Yes fair comment I think.

Although the article initially acknowledges this (see below) and later makes references to the father's alleged extreme beliefs etc. it does not follow up on these points adequately for me and therefore attributes alienation more exclusively to the other factors. It will be interesting to see what, if any, comment the Serious Case Review makes on the point you raise...


The question of what motivates young British men and women to leave their homes and join jihadist groups fighting in Syria has been the subject of heated public debate. The prevailing orthodoxy cites Islamist ideology as the principal driver – and it is obviously a necessary element, if not always the predominant motivation. What has been less understood is the process by which young people grow alienated with their own country, and seek the validation of their identity in a faraway civil war...Their journey from the south coast to Syria cannot be reduced to a single factor, but it involves racist abuse, allegations of police neglect, and the collective failure of numerous authorities – both those charged with protecting vulnerable young people, and those charged with preventing radicalisation.

Thats the elephant in the room , vast amounts of immigrants of whatever race or religion DONT see Britain as ''their'' country, and the sooner this is acknowledged , the sooner the problem can be dealt with, although I think its too late to be honest.

 

[glasfryn]

Thats the elephant in the room , vast amounts of immigrants of whatever race or religion DONT see Britain as ''their'' country, and the sooner this is acknowledged , the sooner the problem can be dealt with, although I think its too late to be honest.

we do not often agree but that is spot on

 

[alfredmizen]

we do not often agree but that is spot on

there's a first time for everything

 

[marshy68]

Listen mate when I was a teenage grebo I got legged round Worthing by a gang of skins. I had to hide in the bogs in the guildbourne centre until they gave up.

I could have done with a middle aged man to post on a message board about my ordeal rather than intervene whilst I was being gobbed on over the cubicle door I can tell you.

Blimey, I grew up in Worthing in the late 70's and 80's I used to love the guildbourne centre.... just full of old ladies in those days.

 

[marshy68]

You think that's scary.

Staying in will mean we are part of an EU that will soon waive visa conditions for 75m Muslims to travel to Europe and is similarly willing to push the borders of "Europe" to Syria, Iraq and Iran.

This policy to be delivered by the EU, without a democratic mandate from the electorate either.



People like you are truly terrifying.

Seems unlikely when they have just given turkey 300 million euros to take most of the immigrants in Greece back... but I guess you could be right.

 

[Fignon's Ponytail]

Having lived in Saltdean since 1999 I had obviously heard about the Guantanamo Bay story - but honestly had no idea about the other stuff? We've used that park regularly since 2003 since we started having kids (my boys are down there all the time these days), & I cant say I've ever seen or heard about any trouble as has been described in that article. I've either been very lucky, or have my head totally buried in the sand with what's going on locally.
Now I find out there is a Neo Nazi Chapter in Saltdean too? Bloody hell, I'm moving out of this gangland hellhole....

 

[cunning fergus]

Seems unlikely when they have just given turkey 300 million euros to take most of the immigrants in Greece back... but I guess you could be right.

Who is this "they" you refer to?

The EU only distributes taxpayers money, and €3bn of it is to be handed to Turkey. Of this the UK taxpayer is weighing in handsomely as always........well over €300m alone, plus what we already contribute to the budget.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/03-refugee-facility-for-turkey/

No doubt some will see this as a splendid investment of UK taxpayers money, and they can console themselves with the thought that this is just the start.

The other point you are missing is that if we are to believe this madcap idea works, we will just get the same umber of migrants arriving in the EU that arrive in places like Greece.

Plus,in time 75m Turks can mooch across the border without a by your leave.

Who voted for that?

 

[GreersElbow]

10 out of 10 Sherlock!

But The Guardian conveniently forgot to mention it was committed by a Muslim

thank yo for pointing out his religion. I was beginning to think he joined the Radical Jew Brigade.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Didn't shock me when a Muslim living 3 mins from my house blew himself up in Syria a few years back.

Did he leave the gas on?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thats the elephant in the room , vast amounts of immigrants of whatever race or religion DONT see Britain as ''their'' country, and the sooner this is acknowledged , the sooner the problem can be dealt with, although I think its too late to be honest.

This is a very interesting point. I have found myself with the boot on my other foot, so to speak, when I lived abroad for 4 years a long time ago. I tended to keep my head down and my mouth shut, with respect to nationality-realted issues, as a foreigner. Unlike some of the ex pat bores who daily invited 'why don't you sod off, then? comments from the locals - albeit they never said this. But there came a point when I had to decide whether to stay or go. I think that if I had stayed I would have grasped the nettle and gone native. I would have had to have done, in my book. Its only polite. And when I came back to England it was work and family rather than any sense of not wanting to be Canadian that swung it.

Ironically the boot has been on yet another foot with my lad. Born in Canada, living in the UK between age 3 and 6, he finally settled here when he was 12 (too complicated to explain). He got his UK citizenship when he was 20 (it is not a formailty by any means). Now he's very much a Brit.

I think that if you move permanently to another country, you should be humble, and do whatever you can to 'become' native. I have never been happy with the monoculture silos we have allowed to form in the UK. Not just allow, but encourage (by dumping or directing folk into particular areas, since the 1950s, rather than requiring dispersion and assimilation).

Unlike you I am hopeful that it isn't too late. It may take a long time, but eventually the kids, or the kids of the kids will say 'bollock to this - I'm English', as I see every day with the students I teach in London. Close my eyes and they all sound English (with the occasional jock - which has included a female Muslim jock who was so jock I wanted to bludgeon a Crankie). Open my eyes, and they are English. Admittedly they are middle class English, but En.glish nonetheless. There is hope here somewhere . . .

By contrast, a mate who works at a much 'lesser' higher education institute tells me that Muslim boys often harrass any Muslim female if they don't dress correctly . . . . my view is that on average this type of behaviour is more prevalent with the less gifted - fancy that!

All the best.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes fair comment I think.

Although the article initially acknowledges this (see below) and later makes references to the father's alleged extreme beliefs etc. it does not follow up on these points adequately for me and therefore attributes alienation more exclusively to the other factors. It will be interesting to see what, if any, comment the Serious Case Review makes on the point you raise...


The question of what motivates young British men and women to leave their homes and join jihadist groups fighting in Syria has been the subject of heated public debate. The prevailing orthodoxy cites Islamist ideology as the principal driver – and it is obviously a necessary element, if not always the predominant motivation. What has been less understood is the process by which young people grow alienated with their own country, and seek the validation of their identity in a faraway civil war...Their journey from the south coast to Syria cannot be reduced to a single factor, but it involves racist abuse, allegations of police neglect, and the collective failure of numerous authorities – both those charged with protecting vulnerable young people, and those charged with preventing radicalisation.

I think there is only one reason/factor why they ended up in Syria instead of staying in a local gang or ending up in prison which are likely destinations of other young men coming from non religious backgrounds experiencing similar problems. As there is with some highly intelligent privileged individuals who end up flying planes into buildings at 500mph. It is that extra catastrophic ingredient that will probably barely get a mention in the serious case review. Far easier to identify agency failures or interdepartmental process shortcomings than tackle the elephant in the room.

 

[Big G]

Steady on old chap!

Wether you agree with the thrust of the article or not it at least it seeks to provide some evidential base to explain why these and other young people may grow alienated and seek the validation of their identity in a faraway civil war etc. In contrast & with respect, simply stating something is drivel etc. while providing no alternative relevant (preferably evidence based) information or explanation is rather easy. Not saying you can't or shouldn't do it but it adds little that is meaningful. If you have more substance points to make I would genuinely like to read them.

I'd add that I don't take everything stated in the article at face value & me posting it does is not a personal endorsement. I think it is worth reading as it makes some interesting / challenging points about a complex and significant issue while raising the profile of local events that many may be unaware of. I'll keep an open mind, consider new evidence / information / views as they come to light & await the outcome of the pending Serious Case Review.

Lastly, on a much more minor point, the fact that you disagree with the content does not necessarily mean it is poorly written. It read quite well to me.

Sorry mate, just don't agree!
I see no substantiated evidence to back up the claims of the terrorists family!
My reasons I don't see it as a good piece of journalism is that at no time did the article in any way question the validity of a 'terrorists' families excuses!
I live in Saltdean and drive past the families house everyday and I've never seen any graffiti!
The story is written on taking every word the 'terrorists' family has said as 100% factual and without contestation and that shows in a very biased story.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Having lived in Saltdean since 1999 I had obviously heard about the Guantanamo Bay story - but honestly had no idea about the other stuff? We've used that park regularly since 2003 since we started having kids (my boys are down there all the time these days), & I cant say I've ever seen or heard about any trouble as has been described in that article. I've either been very lucky, or have my head totally buried in the sand with what's going on locally.
Now I find out there is a Neo Nazi Chapter in Saltdean too? Bloody hell, I'm moving out of this gangland hellhole....

I thought it was an April fools joke, NF chapter and the park a no go area.

I have been working in Saltdean for years, I work in occupied homes and not one person has mentioned any problems at that park apart from when the travelling community turned up a few years back.
One of my lads also played for a Saltdean United kids team for 2 seasons, they trained and played matches at the Oval, so I was down there every weekend, very nice family area .

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

By contrast, a mate who works at a much 'lesser' higher education institute tells me that Muslim boys often harrass any Muslim female if they don't dress correctly . . . . my view is that on average this type of behaviour is more prevalent with the less gifted - fancy that!

if you believe this then your being rather gullable

 

[Tarpon]

Sorry mate, just don't agree!
I see no substantiated evidence to back up the claims of the terrorists family!
My reasons I don't see it as a good piece of journalism is that at no time did the article in any way question the validity of a 'terrorists' families excuses!
I live in Saltdean and drive past the families house everyday and I've never seen any graffiti!
The story is written on taking every word the 'terrorists' family has said as 100% factual and without contestation and that shows in a very biased story.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

The journalist has sited evidence in the article and has reached their position/view. Some relevant quotes relating to family allegations are listed below. If you simply don't believe these stated sources then you need to say why and/or present other evidence. It's implicit that by presenting this evidence that the journalist has considered the information and reached a conclusion. You may not like this conclusion and/or the approach may not satisfy you. If so then you are likely looking for a burden of proof well beyond the reach of average investigative journalism & should probably refrain from reading any as it will no doubt frustrate you. You have described this article as drivel, I would honestly welcome you directing me to alternative press articles that satisfy your levels of scrutiny.

Oh and the alleged graffiti was on the prom so unless they lived on the prom why did you expect to see it by their house?

I would reiterate that I don't accept everything in the article as gospel but neither do I dismiss it without good reason. With all due respect I would suggest that your response and consideration of the article appears more biased than the article itself.

No offence like!

'Police logs documenting a single month, September 2009, reveal the extent to which the family was targeted'

'On 23 November 2010, at a child protection case conference, social workers, police and healthcare workers concluded that Amer, Abdulrahman and Abdullah, and Jaffar, “were subject to actual, emotional and physical harm”.'

'The council’s team for helping troubled families believed that the boys had suffered “significant emotional abuse”. Their alleged exposure to violence was considered so deleterious that they might have suffered “symptoms of post-traumatic stress”.'

'The family continued to suffer racist abuse, according to social services'

'One housing official described witnessing the twins “barking orders” at their mother. Police received frequent reports of missing teenage boys, only to find them living at the Deghayes’s family home.'

'In the first week of 2014, an official from the Youth Offending Service described his astonishment at Abdullah’s fragile appearance. “He is very vulnerable and would always look sad and lost, like a little boy.” '